Feb
8

Mythic…just let bloggers in the beta.

29 Comments

…I mean good gawd. What are you afraid of?

1) Bloggers are under NDA…just like everyone else, so there is no fear of anything leaking because the rest of us honorable people would rip them apart for doing so (…at least, I would call them out…). And don’t give me that crap about “bloggers are press”…that’s BS.

2) Extra coverage. Bloggers get into your beta, NDA lifted and you get a whole bunch of free coverage that you would never get otherwise. Yes…good and bad coverage but you’re obviously confident that your game is “glorious”. Right?

3) Bloggers are better testers. Why? Because they have a proven track record for committing to their blogs…and they are the most passionate among gamers because of that commitment.

4) Bloggers are community leaders. Convince them your game is good and “they will come”.

Mythic, building a community for your game is all about the grassroots here….so get on it!!!

D out

P.S. DON’T send me a beta, but please at least send Keen one so that he stops writing about it every second day ;)

Posted in Warhammer
29 Comments Posted by Darren

29 Responses to "Mythic…just let bloggers in the beta."

  • Keen says:
    February 8, 2008 at 12:47 pm

    My name is Keen and I approve of this message.

  • Bildo says:
    February 8, 2008 at 1:06 pm

    My name is Bildo, and I approve of this message… as well as of the notion of at least letting Keen in. I’d like to stop having him e-mail me asking me if I’m Mark Jacobs in disguise. The nude photos on the last one were… disturbing to say the least.

    Seriously, I’d love to hear the REASON in argument form against Darren’s very fine points here, why so few (one?) of us bloggers are actually in the beta. I mean, we’re not really press at all. We don’t get paid to do what we do, we don’t get paid to influence people with fake news… we just write what we feel. And it’s a rising concensus that bloggers are trusted editorialists, thousands upon thousands of readers every day across the blogosphere visit these sites to read what we have to talk about and to partake in open discussion… why keep such a community out of your beta?

    I’m not bitching here, just honestly questioning the motive.

  • bigtmac68 says:
    February 8, 2008 at 1:55 pm

    Not to disagree with the post, but from a companies standpoint ‘Press’ is anyone who can influence a signifigant audience with thier editorial coverage. Many in the blogosphere certainly carry that distiction. Especially in the video gaming industry where the majority of your reviews come from internet media. Personally I could categorize a blogger as an amature journalist if they provide news and or editorial without pay.

    When you consider the power that Penny Arcade and many other sites have to influence the community perhaps you can understand why the line is very blurry in the mind of a marketing executive for a game publisher.

    To give a personal example, the only reason I did not buy Pirates of the Burning Sea was because of the negative reviews I read here and on other blogs. On the other side, if my computer could run it I would allready have Tabula Rasa for the same reason.

    That said, I agree that keeping bloggers out only serves to make the community nervous about your game. If you have a good product, nothing could get the word out faster than to get the blogging community on your side. Avoiding them just makes people nervous.

    I know it does for me.

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 2:09 pm

    Not that I speak for Mythic or even my own views but here are some possible ideas on what they might think.

    Bloggers have an agenda

    Bloggers only see the Beta as content for their site

    Bloggers do not have the same ethical standards of professional journalists

    Bloggers operate in a world without the same repercussions (for being unethical) as professional journalists (financial, loosing your job)

  • Tipa says:
    February 8, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    It’s not like blogging has a high barrier to entry. You can blog on your MySpace, on your LiveJournal, after filling out a short form on Blogger and WordPress, and *bam* you’re a blogger with no control on anything you say.

    We’re not journalists by any stretch of the imagination.

    Now, are we community influencers? Possibly some are, especially if they write for some of the major sites. But the lone blogger with less than 1K visits a day? We’re just players, and we blog because we love playing your game (if we hated it, we wouldn’t play, and hence, wouldn’t have much to say about it). It’s we minor bloggers that provide the width and depth of game coverage because we’re not doing it for pay, we’re doing it out of passion and we’re going to let everyone know about all the good things that never get mentioned — compare blogger coverage of EQ2′s launch. The professionals had nothing but fluff. The bloggers identified the good and the bad, passionately talked about both, and the devs addressed the issues and made it better. NONE of the pros caught the problems with the release.

    Individually, we’re not much. Together, we can REALLY promote your game when the NDA drops.

    Bloggers, I’d think, would be a vitally important resource for any game company.

    tipa@westkarana.com

  • Tipa says:
    February 8, 2008 at 2:11 pm

    @Nat — well, why not let pro journalists in then?

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 2:51 pm

    @Tipa

    See #1 and 2 and replace Blogger with journalist;)
    Journalists have an agenda
    Journalists only see the Beta as content for their site/mag

    @ Darren and any other Blogger reading this I have a couple questions:
    Why do you want in the Beta?
    To test the game?
    To be able to post up your impressions on your site when the NDA drops?
    To drive traffic to your site?
    To help your fellow gamer make good game choices?

    Not looking to be an ass or anything just asking honest questions.

    Press adds little to nothing to the Beta process and in some cases I think being part of a Beta can influence an honest review of the game. You don?t see art critics sitting next to the painter during the whole creative process; you don?t see film critics at movie shoots. Sure this would give them a great understanding of what thought processes went into the project but it could also prevent them from objectively looking at the finished work.

  • Tipa says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:16 pm

    Oh, I never get in betas early enough to influence the game at all. I usually just get in with the open beta. The last beta where I actually got in early enough to TEST stuff was EQ1, Omens of War. I dunno what magic people use to get in to betas early enough to actually check for bugs or have any influence on the design. So yeah, since I am usually in the open beta just a couple of days before launch, I am definitely there to get content for the blog. People are DESPERATE for information on the game at launch, and usually the commercial sites have very little besides what the marketing team wants them to print (again, re: RoK launch). Blogs are the only way to get any real information about upcoming or recently released games.

  • Darren says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:28 pm

    Whether we’re press or not is NOT the issue. The issue is why bloggers are not allowed to test the game along with other members of the the WARhammer community.

    @ Nat:
    - yes I test a game…I’m one of those types
    - yes…I will post Beta Impressions when the NDA drops. I’d also give release impressions after retail.
    - don’t care about traffic….this blog is for me, not for anyone eles.
    - help readers make choices? Yes…but I suspect anything I say will be balanced by other bloggers out there. Again, the cumulative blogger picture is usually dead on when it comes to impressions.
    - sorry, your last statement makes absolutlely no sense. We’re talking software in which the artistic component is only a part of the picture…which needs to be play tested. Why can’t a blogger be part of that process? Just because they happen to have an audience when they write about games?

    @bigmac: We’re no PA to be sure. I think the blogger community as a whole did a great service to you by giving you the information needed to make a decision. Again, you looked to the blogosphere as a whole for that information…and it wasn’t just from beta information, that was from retail. Are you telling me that the bloggers in beta convinced you more than the bloggers who just got the retail version? I think not.

    When it comes to betas, there is no…NO reason why a blogger cannot make a legitate contribution from a) a testing perspective, b) a press perpective (when NDA is dropped) and c) a community building perspective. From my perspective, and I’ll call like it is, Mythic’s stance on this is bass ackwards.

  • Cuppycake says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:39 pm

    I hope you don’t think it’s just Mythic who does this. Almost every game company I know has periods of their beta where they completely avoid anybody who might be prominent in the industry – whether its a blogger, fansite owner, prevalent forum poster, employee of the game industry, etc. That’s just the way it works.

    Couple that with the fact that they most likely don’t want to give them out to people who beg and complain publically….;)

  • Pixie Styx says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:47 pm

    Play dirty …. just apply and dont tell them you blog :o ) dont use a name associated with your blog, and abide by nda …. hello beta

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    @Darren

    I think you missed my point somewhat. If you are going to critique something to the public (and have an audience) then you can be seen as any other reviewer (art critic/film critic, etc).

    Can you (as a Blogger) provide the same services as any other tester? Of course you can but you also bring something they do not ? the ability and desire to review the game to an audience. Mythic does not want this additional aspect you and other Bloggers or press brings.

    When you act as press you are no longer just some gamer anymore. This seems to be the line that Mythic has drawn.

  • Keen says:
    February 8, 2008 at 3:57 pm

    *kitty face* I can has a metaplace invite Cuppy? :X /beg /complain

    @ Nat: I like being a part of the testing. That way I can at least pretend to feel justified that anything I did or said made a difference. I also like playing these games. That’s why I write and talk with others about them. It’s a hobby – albeit and obsessive and borderline unhealthy one.

    As for traffic or e-clout … let’s be real here. Anyone who cares about traffic or being taken seriously doesn’t create a blog where they write about whatever they want. There are far better routes to fame and glory and I scoff at anyone who thinks they are important for having a blog.

    Personally I don’t wish to be taken any more seriously or be of any more importance than anyone else. Beta testing isn’t about inviting specific people. It’s about covering a broad demographic so that a product can be tested properly. I would just hope to have a chance like everyone else to participate in something as neat as testing the next Mythic game.

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 4:30 pm

    Just to be clear on this I see where you all are coming from but you have to understand where my logic is coming from.

    YOU might see yourselves as just any other gamer that happens to have a place where they like to talk with others who share their hobby and passion about that hobby but Mythic does not seem to see it that way.

    The original question was why does Mythic feel this way. I have simply been attempting to speculate on what their motives might be.

    On a somewhat side not I personally think Bloggers are in an, lets say interesting spot. Companies like SOE sure as hell look at Bloggers as press and have even started treating them as such in a way. From some angles it could be seen as SOE views them almost like their own little viral marketing apparatuses (NO offense to anyone). The view of Bloggers from the company?s points of view should be something interesting to watch over the next few years for sure and Mythic’s view here is part of that trend I think.

  • Darren says:
    February 8, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    “Companies like SOE sure as hell look at Bloggers as press and have even started treating them as such in a way. From some angles it could be seen as SOE views them almost like their own little viral marketing apparatuses (NO offense to anyone). The view of Bloggers from the company?s points of view should be something interesting to watch over the next few years for sure and Mythic?s view here is part of that trend I think.”

    …and there’s an inconsistency there I think. There really is no logical reason why a blogger cannot be a tester for a game….I just don’t see it.

  • Genda says:
    February 8, 2008 at 5:47 pm

    I’m in Warhammer beta and I blog.

    Their NDA states I can say that there is a beta and I’m in the beta. They aren’t getting any benefit or detriment from me being in. I would think that eventually that they will want bloggers in, closer to release.

    For now, I’m not doing them any good other than as a beta tester.

    BTW, Darren is correct. SOE pretty much kept me as a fan site owner at arms length, and some folks over there that are friends tell me that some are still pretty sore at me about some blog posts. So, if I ever want to get in an SOE beta again, I don’t think I’ll use my blog email address to apply.

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    Sorry Darren but it appears that I you are focusing on the side point I made and not the possible reason I gave for Mythic not wanting bloggers. I will give it one more shoot.

    Bloggers (like it or not) it appears are viewed as press by Mythic. You are viewed as press first and a gamer or tester second (if that).

    The comment you quoted of mine was simply a side point that is related to bloggers being viewed as press.

    Genda – your experience with SOE seems to only validate my speculation on bloggers being viewed as press. They seem to be angry and perhaps blacklisted you very similar to the stories we have heard from professional game press getting blacklisted for things they have written by game companies.

  • Nat says:
    February 8, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    Sorry I hate typo’s.

    That should be one more SHOT;)

  • Tom says:
    February 9, 2008 at 7:02 am

    A lot of people make their opinions based on what a blogger says about the game. I don’t know why, after the Tabula Rasa stuff I don’t think I will take anyones word for how the game is going. Up until the day of release of TR all I heard was “This game sucks!” “Not worth your time” “Richard Garriot blah blah blah” then all of a sudden look and see what’s happening. “Tabula Rasa is sweet!” “This game is fun!” … I am sure bloggers before the game came out made people think “hey all these people are saying the game suck. Why should I buy it then?”.

    As someone who’s profession in life is managing a testing team in gaming, I can tell you that not every gamer, or even people who write about games are any good at testing games. Hell half the people who make the games can’t play them. So what makes a blogger “a better tester”?

  • Darren says:
    February 9, 2008 at 8:50 am

    What makes a blogger a better tester? I think I addressed that already, but I’ll say it again. If you have someone who commits their time to writing everyday about games, chances are they will show that same commitment to play testing yours.

    Tom, I think you’re confusing play testing with technical testing. From a technical standpoint (i.e fault testing, boundary conditions, failure paths, stability etc etc), you’re right, they aren’t better testers. From a play testing perspective, they can be more committed than the average joe who just wants to try a free game…at the very least they are the same as every other gamer which brings me back to the point of why leave them out in the first place?

  • Ted says:
    February 9, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    What kind of beta app staff are we dealing with here? Seriously, how in tune with the online media are they that they have a “DO NOT INVITE” list published and checked against all beta applications. I personally don’t see how they could know that I was in anyway affiliated with the “press” since the email I used in my beta application is not the same that I use when I’m gabbing about WAR. Unless they just avoid all beta apps named Ted “just in case” in which case I’m sorry my fellow Ted folks. :(

    Did you guys apply with emails that are affiliated with your online identity? I haven’t looked to see where your last name may appear here Darren let alone Keen’s actual first name (and pardon me if it’s actually Keen then your parents were all sorts of awesome).

  • Keen says:
    February 9, 2008 at 12:21 pm

    I used a gmail that consists of my domain name. *shrug* I would have used my email that I used back when playing DAOC religiously for years (maybe that would have made a difference) except for the fact that it no longer receives anything but “enhancement” spam and won’t even accept mail from contacts.

  • Bildo says:
    February 9, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    The address I used is tied to my blogger account. Though I don’t feel too bad. My wife hasn’t gotten in yet and she’s just a normal chica.

  • Tom says:
    February 9, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    but they know its your wife! The EA overlords are watching!

  • Relmstein says:
    February 9, 2008 at 10:58 pm

    This is why I’m glad I have more then one email account and can apply for betas.

    I do find it funny that when Tabula Rasa came out it got blasted in the blogosphere as okay but not worth the money. A month later and most everyone is singing sweet praises for the game. I pretty sure the reason is that when most of those bloggers were testing the game it did suck. However, you can’t expect free testers to stick around and give information on a game that’s not really fun. Thats really more of a job for paid internal testers. Once they think its fun then you should bring in the free beta testers.

  • Bildo says:
    February 10, 2008 at 9:59 am

    @but they know its your wife! The EA overlords are watching!

    You mean… those guys in the black suits with Waaaagh! buttons weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses?! AHHHHH!

  • Sente says:
    February 10, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    @Darren:

    Extra coverage. Bloggers get into your beta, NDA lifted and you get a whole bunch of free coverage that you would never get otherwise. Yes?good and bad coverage but you?re obviously confident that your game is ?glorious?. Right?

    They can still get coverage after the NDA is lifted and before the game is released if they have an open beta program. If someone would be a good beta tester they could join whilethe game is under NDA, whether they blog or not particularly relevant.

    Bloggers are better testers. Why? Because they have a proven track record for committing to their blogs?and they are the most passionate among gamers because of that commitment.

    Lots of people may be committed to various types of activities, blogging and/or gaming may be part of it. That does not automatically make them good game beta testers.

    @Relmstein:

    I do find it funny that when Tabula Rasa came out it got blasted in the blogosphere as okay but not worth the money. A month later and most everyone is singing sweet praises for the game.

    The game was not really much different then in the beta around when NDA was lifted and later at release in terms of gameplay mechanics. It was pretty much the same. They did some tuning on difficulty, mob spawns and some bug fixes. And they have continued to do that after release, as would have been expected with any MMOG.
    I think it it a example of a game which were bloggers not necessarily were good beta testers. Not that they should have praised the game when the NDA was lifted, but I think there may be a fair amount of people in there just to play something “new and shiny” to write about rather than actually testing the game and being interested in testing this type of game. Had there been a number of other MMOGs in beta at the same time, some bloggers would probably have steered towards other game betas instead. What they would have written about and what they would have written may have been different then.

  • The value of the blogging community. « Hardcore Casual says:
    February 11, 2008 at 10:02 am

    [...] value of the blogging community. Darren made a nice plea over at his site for bloggers to get into the WAR beta, or at the very least Keen. [...]

  • Saylah says:
    February 11, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    I would like to be in the WAR beta to test and see the game for myself. Even if I never wrote a word, I’d like to see it because I just love all things fantasy and this is a much anticipated game. Until recently, I never would have agreed with considering bloggers press-like and never considered myself an influencer. But having impressions I posted on a couple of games get responses from representatives from the game developer, I’m no longer in such a naive slumber on the potential of bloggers to sway readers. In my mind, I’m just bloggin’ aka talkin shit about games I like or don’t, much like chatting on the phone with friends. However, I can see their hesitation in today’s critical climate, even though I wish their stance was different. Oh well.

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