Jun
19

Craft be Gone

35 Comments

Starting to see a pattern yet?

Lots of people thought (….and mistakingly so..) that my last article was either about getting rid of raiding, or the un-winnable hardcore vs casual debate, and even a “let’s give everything away to everyone you socialist pig…there..happy!?”. Nope. If you fell into one of those categories…please read it again. That article was about challenging the status quo and trying to get the community to come up with new mechanisms for the end game. I failed somewhat in the task because those three debate ruts are usually where people go when such questions are asked. Well….today I hit on crafting. Another not-so-sacred cow and again I’m going to go through my thoughts on the whole current situation and then, hopefully more successfully this time, get the community to discuss better ways of doing things.

Where do I start. Oh yeah…crafting is boring. It is so boring right now that tears will actually form in your eyes. Do people like crafting? Yes…most certainly they do, heck, there are even whole EQ2 guilds created just on the whole premise of crafting. Thats all they do…is take orders and craft. In Eve, there are whole corporations just of people who collect resources or take resources and create ships and other things for you. These people are out there, but I honestly think that crafting needs a good look at in terms of design and implementation…almost more so than raiding, but only by a hair.

WAIT A MINUTE!! Hands off of that comment button. Do I think the present solution of crafting should be taken out and shot in the streets? No….cause then you’d leave those people who like it stranded. Is it a possibility that we should shoot the current solution? Yes….if there is a better one…and you know me, I always think there are better solutions out there.

The tried and true version of crafting is as follows: troll goes out and chops/mines/gathers a resource. Troll chips/hammers/cooks the resource into a usable item at the forge/. Troll increases crafting skill. Troll sells/gives away/uses said item. Troll rocks himself to sleep.

My suggestion? Get rid of harvesting. It really serves no real purpose except to put a buffer between you and actually crafting. Some games are getting ready to do that (Spellborn comes to mind….not sure if thats true though). Why harvest? What you want to do is make stuff…so I really do think that most crafting elements should be drops out of adventuring somehow. At least this way, you are working on both spheres, i.e. crafting and adventuring, at the same time. True, presently you can kill stuff while you harvest, but you’re still just harvesting at that point and doing nothing else…oh yeah, your mining skill goes up….whoop-dee-doo.

The actual act of crafting itself needs to be spiced up just a bit. Something needs to be added to make it go…for lack of a better word…”pop”. Honestly, I’m at a loss right now (I blame the Corona I’m drinking…too much lime) as to how this would be done…but I’m lucky that I have a really bright set of readers to think this stuff up for me. One thing I would like to see is more relevant crafting. What I mean by that is that if you stay ON PAR with your crafting, you’ll be able to use the stuff you create. LoTRO comes really close to that…but not quite as close as you’d like. I’d like the days of the “need X levels above your adventuring level in order to use stuff” to be gone..

So…lets put some ideas out there. What do you guys like about the current crafting implementations? What would you like to see happen in crafting? What other designs can you think of?

D out.

P.S The first person who says that this is hardcore vs casual gets the standard tcsgamer box of angry kittens sent to them COD.

Posted in Editorial
35 Comments Posted by Darren

35 Responses to "Craft be Gone"

  • Cameron Sorden says:
    June 19, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    Come on Darren… you just want to shaft the hardcore and give handouts to casuals.

    No, I’m kidding. But do you really think harvesting is just a buffer? People like harvesting. My girlfriend thinks crafting is boring is hell, but she loves seeing little dots pop up on her map so she can run over and collect them. It’s like a treasure hunt. I don’t think harvesting needs to go.

    I’ll agree on the crafting process needing to be more interesting, though. Even Everquest 2′s unique system leaves me feeling like something is lacking… and I end up bored (although that doesn’t prevent me from crafting).

    It would be neat to actually build the item. Use tools, sculpt it, make motions with the mouse, tie it together, forge it, etc etc. Think of the baking minigame in the latest pokemon. You spin the item you’re baking in opposite directions while it cooks– first one way, then the other. Spin it too fast and it overflows. Too slow, and it burns. The number of burns and overflows determine the quality of the final product. A modified system like that could be really cool for forging, jewelcraft, woodworking, cooking, fishing… you name it.

  • Akely says:
    June 20, 2007 at 2:06 am

    meh… I’m very split regarding crafting. I usually craft (in EQ2) when I’ve had a very hecticc fay and need to just sit and relax. With a beer, naturally. Hinestly I liked the crafting better before LU… (x) when the process did take longer time and subcomponents was part of it.

    For making it more fun I think the introduction of crafting writs (again in EQ2) is a step in the right direction. That step could (should?) be broadened into crafting quests given by NPC’s. Just like regular quests. There whould have to be some sort of way to tell the quests apart from the start though, since some people hate to craft.

    Harvasting: I have friends who hate to craft yet do a decent ammount of money harvesting (yeat again in EQ2). Some ingridients are heavily used by almost all crafting professions and for the harvester finding a rare ingridient a fine ammount of cash can be the reward.

    I dare not go into the hardcore/casual debate. I have enough cats as it is. But I will point out that I do not think that automatically making things easier is a sollution for a more fun and better game. This goes for crafting and in a sence raiding too. Stuff that is hard should have a good reward. Making stuff/money (too) easy to come by is just inflation.

    I would like to see a little more planning in crafitng. Having some kind of button mashing is not enough, I think. Perhaps the recepies coul be researched instead of bought. Or both so I could by them if I wanted. Perhaps one should be able to modify/re-model existing thing. Ideally this modifications would not be recepes but instead some general process that needed no recepies. How it would work? Beats me. It is just a 0800 tired idea… I need an espresso!

  • Lord of Vermilion says:
    June 20, 2007 at 2:38 am

    While your article is good, I still say hardcore players are better.

    Really though, without going into too much depth, I’m not a fan of crafting really, never have been, nor am I a fan of gathering/harvesting/farming mats and solutions etc to do so, I feel it’s an unneccessary waste of time.

    I wouldn’t say taking out the farming part is the way to solve any boredom incurred by crafting though, I’d much rather just see it planned better.

    Although I have no idea how to do that? I think crafting is so basic and so quintessential in MMORPG’s that it is implimented in that I honestly wouldn’t know where to begin in suggesting another method or a way to make it better.

    I would however, like to see better items being able to be created across the board instead of the “tier” system of getting crappy mats, making them into slightly less crappy mats, making them into medium mats, then high, then making the item etc. It’s extremely none-involving and quickly becomes tedious.

    Even improving how it looks (such as it showing you actually forging an item if you did something like blacksmithing) instead of you rubbing your hands infront of a none-interactive static forge, would entice me into being more excited to take it on, rather than avoiding it or experiencing pain when doing it, like I do now.

  • Pvthudson says:
    June 20, 2007 at 4:39 am

    Man I hate gathering. Despise it. Never do it in most games I play, in fact the wife has provided me with most my mats she is a fiend about it. Crafting in EQ2 beats the heck out of most games though that is for sure, I actually do it in that game as opposed to WoW where I just snickered at it and kept on leveling.

  • Pixey styx says:
    June 20, 2007 at 7:30 am

    Apples and oranges …. I know a lot of people who love to craft and spend more time devoted to that sphere of the game than adventuring and others who hate it.I think it has a valid role in a mmorpg, however not sure anyone really has come close to getting it right.

    I acutally like gathering but hate crafting, when i’m out in the ‘field’ and something pops up that I can gather whilst heading to point a then I’m happy to endulge my crafting side …

    Potbs have an intersting crafting idea which could prove to be a crafting system that I might actually dive into …

  • Bildo says:
    June 20, 2007 at 8:37 am

    I think the IDEA of crafting is great. It just needs as much attention as dungeons and combat get, is all. It needs to be made more dynamic and more interesting. Let’s back pedal a bit 1st.

    I was playing LotRO the other day, and I’m also playing EQ2 on and off right now. Both have similar systems in just about every way. But one thing, and it’s about harvesting, that stood out to me in LotRO’s crafting was that no matter what I harvest I get something back. No failing to mine something. No failing to gather wood. No failing at all really when it comes to harvesting. Then I played EQ2, and often times you don’t get squat from what you’re harvesting.

    My point with this is that there are lots of little things that can be done to make the current crafting game better. Things like the afforementioned gathering fix. Or say that you could name your crafted gear (with filters of course) so that you could make it unique and truly your own. Right now, most of what one makes in a game can be made by just about anyone, making you feel about as “cool” as line manufacturer. But give one the option to name their shiny sword the way they see fit, and suddenly you can put a little character into it.

    Going one step further, give a broad range of options for the look of a crafted item. The better someone’s skill at crafting an item, the more options they can choose from for the looks of the item. They could change the hilt, the shape of the blade, or whatnot. More ways to make a crafter feel like they’re actually “crafting” the item would be superb.

    And going in a gameplay direction, why not put a little skill into the action of making something? Instead of just a click and point window-based procedure, why not put a little gameplay into it.

    My proposition would be to make it somewhat of a rhythm game. Timing the beat of your smith’s hammer with an onscreen display. Harder rhythms for harder items. Special items could be made when a player nails the beats perfectly, with added stats persay. When sewing a robe, the same interface could be used, or even mixing potions. Suddenly what was once a very non-interactive “activity”, becomes a very interactive game. That *gasp* can take a small bit of skill to be good at, not just diligence in harvesting or buying mats.

    Those are just a few of my ideas. Let me know what you think. I think I’ll have to repost this on my blog, for my 3 readers.

  • brackishwater says:
    June 20, 2007 at 8:37 am

    While I do not agree with putting a lime in a Corona, I do think that crafting could use some changes.
    I grinded out three tiers in Vanguards system and somehow managed to keep an interest in crafting enough to try LOTRO’s attempt. Although it was more like a WoW system, it did have some useful items to use right out of the gate. Its important I think to reward your crafters with things they can actually use as early as possible.
    What to do about the system?

    Harvesting: Drop the player sized nodes and try to bring them down to a more realistic or logical size. Are you really telling me that a rock the size of me only yielded 2 chunks of copper? WTF!? This would probably appeal to immersion nuts.
    I also thought that SWG approach to harvesting was excellent, it was fun and with persistence, it really paid off in great mats. I loved running around on tasks and pinging for mats at the same time. How to get this system into fantasy? Well, its fantasy, go imaginaton GO!
    I do not think Harvesting should be dropped as I know many people who do that when they do not feel like questing. It reaps immediate reward and we all know how important that is.

    Crafting: One of the things I liked about VG’s crafting was the deconstruction. It was not done completely and had some pretty big issues but deconstruction/reverse engineering, whatever you want to call it, is a nice implementation.
    Why cant every item in game be made? Why does it have to be “Crafted Gear” and “Dropped Gear”? The devs have the stats when they put them in loot tables, give em to the crafters as well. Make them work with their trainers and cost coin to learn the recipes on dropped items.
    Here is an example: Joe Blacksmith gets a dropped 2h sword of X mob. Joe was grouped with Jack who is not a blacksmith and really wants the sword as well. Joe, takes the sword back to his Blacksmith trainer and in order to learn the recipe, the trainer has to deconstruct the item. “Hmm, let me see that Joe. Yes, I think we can figure this out, give me a moment to look at this.” Then Joe receieve a recipe for the item for an exchange of coin and can now make as many as he wants for everyone.

  • The “I” word and Crafting « Brackish Waters says:
    June 20, 2007 at 11:29 am

    [...] “I” word and Crafting Posted June 20, 2007 Darren over at Common Sense Gamer wrote an interesting article asking the community what they thought about the current state of [...]

  • Kendricke says:
    June 20, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Darren, I say this in the nicest way possible, but you don’t really “get” tradeskilling, do you?

    Tradeskilling is very much it’s own form of solo playstyle, and the top tradeskillers are quite easily some of the most hardcore players you’re ever likely to encounter. For years, hardcore tradeskillers hated the idea that in order to access their preferred playstyle, they had to first access a playstyle they did not necessarily want to access: adventuring.

    In Everquest, I was a top tradeskiller, a member of the 1750 club before I left, actually (and if you don’t know what that is, consider my first sentence in this entry once more). I also tradeskilled in Star Wars Galaxies for a time (after Jump to Lightspeed). Like many others, I was lured to the original promise of tradeskills in Everquest II, which ended up being a hollow shell of the potential glory we were hoping for.

    Oh, I still craft, but it’s just not what I was looking for in the current crop of crafting. However, that’s hardly because of harvesting. Harvesting is actually something enjoyable to me, even when I don’t feel up to crafting. It’s a way to spend 20 minutes online while waiting for a group to form up, or a way to earn some quick cash while enjoying your first cup of coffee in the morning before work. It involves no groups, no quest steps, and no investment to speak of.

    It also gives an alternate path to play that doesn’t involve the typical hack and slash of most MMO’s. This is really what most players who see tradeskilling as a primary playstyle are looking for, before anything else.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    Ken…how does asking for new ideas even come close to hinting that I don’t “get” it.

    Quit being an ass and give us a new idea…ortherwise you’re of no use to this conversation.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    …I don’t mind you commenting, but you’ve been straying off topic lately and almost behaving in a troll like manner on this site for some reason.

    You’re a smart guy….we all know that, but this post is about getting new ideas out there. So either contribute or don’t…but never come on this site an assume someone doesn’t know what they are talking about just because they’re looking for new ideas.

    Get on it or off it.

  • brent says:
    June 20, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Everyone follow me into the bomb shelter while we wait for the battle to conclude… this way….

    Later we can come back and loot the loser.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    If Ken actually gives some new ideas and stays on topic, then there will be no losers.

  • Kendricke says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    Whoa there. Resorting to direct attacks because I disagree with your argument? Who’s “being an ass” here?

    If you’re going to start playing the part of community rep, you have to realize that there are parts of the “community” you’re not representing. If you want to posting controversial topics for the purpose of “getting new ideas out there”, you need to realize that some folks aren’t going to buy into what you’re selling just because you put it out on the table.

    At the beginning of this “article”, you claim that you failed to get your previous point across because “those three debate ruts are usually where people go when such questions are asked.” No, it’s not the readers’ fault here. Stop naming articles with sensationalistic titles like “Raid Be Gone” and “Craft Be Gone” and then dictating to your critics that they don’t really know what they’re talking about, and accuse them of not contributing to the conversation, when you yourself admit that you’re “at a loss” on the subject.

    So, let’s keep the ad hominems out of the debate, shall we? You can disagree with me or my issues all you wish. You can challenge my points all you want. You can ask me questions for clarification or encourage responses in a certain way all you want.

    However, let’s keep the name calling out of the equation. Frankly, it reflects worse on you than on myself, and certainly it doesn’t further your points. If anything, it makes it seem as if my points are all the stronger since you attacked myself as an easier target.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    …and the new idea in there is…????

    …still not staying on topic. The question and spirit of the article is about new ideas for crafting. everyone who has posted seems to get it. Why don’t you.

    Contribute ideas or leave…very simple.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    Fact is I have never come on to your site, or Cuppy’s site, or Brent’s site, proceeded to tell them that they don’t “get it” and then go off and not address the topic of the original post.

    If you’re looking to test the line, you found it. Stay on topic. Contribute to the post, please contribute…but don’t ever assume that asking for new ideas is an indication of “not getting it”…that pissed me off. Don’t ever assume that because you’re done with the debate that others are.

    Carry on…

  • brent says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    People tell me I don’t ‘get it’ all the time. In fact, I suspect both of you are impersonating trolls on my site.

    —

    And here is my latest idea for crafting that I will add to the dung heap.

    —

    Crafting has never been fun in any MMO. It has occasionally been necessary, and it has occasionally been profitable. Fun is has never been. (Yes, I speak like Yoda.) Therefore, my idea is – stop implementing crafting. Clearly it isn’t a fun game element, which means it probably shouldn’t be forced into the system. Take a look at Vanguard’s crafting. Not fun. Now take a look at Vanguard’s Diplomacy. That’s pretty fun. Too bad it serves no real value in the game. If crafting could become at least as much fun as Diplomacy, I’d allow it and maybe I’d even participate. Truth be told, I shun most crafting systems these days because I have a permanent bad taste left over from my past experiences. It is going to take a very special crafting system to change my mind at this point.

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    What about the idea Kendricke brought up regarding upgrading your equipment as you level…or you equipment levels and improves with your character.

    “How does the idea of an item that can be acquired solo, made stronger through grouping, and maximized in potential through raiding sound to most of you?”

    How would crafting effect that kind of implementation?

  • brent says:
    June 20, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    That solution and ‘crafting’ are exclusive of one another – at least in my mind.

  • JoBildo says:
    June 20, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    What, will no one comment on my idea? :( I thought it was good, but not without its faults. My main problem with crafting is that it’s just not very interactive. I like “PLAYING” games, not watching crafting bars fill.

    Someone tell me to piss off too, dammit! :)

  • Darren says:
    June 20, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    If you came up with an idea, I’m happy. Hopefully someone will read it and say “Bildo’s a frackin genius!” and take something away from it. I like the rhythm idea….maybe more interaction is what is needed.

    …and oh yeah, piss off ;)

  • The Field of MMO Crafting Gripes « The Ancient Gaming Noob says:
    June 20, 2007 at 2:45 pm

    [...] comes to providing for my characters.? So it was with some skepticism that I read the post “Craft Be Gone” over at The Common Sense [...]

  • Bildo says:
    June 20, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    Yay! Pissing off then, boss. :)

    Have a great evening guys, don’t let the man get you down, and let’s come back and do it again tomorrow.

    (I’m leaving work…)

  • brent says:
    June 20, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    Wow, Bildo’s a frackin genius!

  • jsquirrel says:
    June 20, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    I think EQ2′s crafting is plenty fun, though I didn’t like the removal of all the recipes and subcomponents (I was a Provisioner). Vanguard’s crafting, however, is the farthest thing from fun for me, though I have a friend who loves it.

    And to be honest I’d rather harvest than craft. The more things I’m able to collect, the better.

  • Bildo says:
    June 20, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    (Home now, looks at brent in shock…)

    Whoa, someone said it! It must be true! I’m going to take the MENSA tests. Be right back.

    (Several hours later, after badgering the test givers to score him right then and there…)

    Hmm… turns out I’m actually mentally disabled. Huh. Who knew? Wait, none of you answer that.

  • DamianoV says:
    June 20, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    There are multiple desires and paths that the people interested in crafting pursue, similar to everything else in the world. Different perspectives, different answers.

    Crafting implementations to date, for the most part, have been either “grind-fests” (UO, original EQ2) or something to do while/as an excuse for socializing (EQ1, WoW). In either case, meeting the needs of those audiences is served by a relatively simple set of mechanics that can be repeated endlessly with minimal “surprises”. Whether you’re trying to get to max skill or just have something to do while chatting, most of the crafting systems we’ve seen really kind of fit the bill.

    My suggestion for a more “full bodied” crafting system, if you will, moves along the same lines as Bildo’s suggestions. A more intricate experience, a true process (_not_ a coin flip, or worse, a countdown and THEN a coin flip) where your decisions truly impact the outcome, as opposed to the now omnipresent “recipe+material rarity+progress by the time the timer/turn counter runs out (maybe)”=same result a million other people have gotten. Think of SW:G templating system, but designed for worlds where everything is still handcrafted, instead of mass-produced.

    There are technical difficulties with that concept. Implemented as I would envision, each item would need to be expressed individually in data/code… no 2 swords/wands/what-have-you would be exactly the same, even if produced by the same craftsman using the same process. The DBA activities involved behind the scenes become significantly greater.

    More daunting, many current crafters, particularly those with a socialization focus, could disapprove depending upon the specifics of the implementation. Time limits and the like are possible “bad things”… if they want to stop to talk for a bit, should that really impact their final result? “Surprise effects” like random flaws have the same problem… if they craft to have something to do while chatting, things that interfere with chatting will be problematic for them.

    Achievement oriented folks, on the other hand, should be relatively easy to satisfy, assuming a relatively typical advancement model is used. (If you go with something more like Bildo’s rhythm idea, a test of some skill of the player as opposed to the current accretion/collection paradigm, it might get dicey for some of them, tho. )

    P.S. I like the basic concept, Bildo. Any idea for what to do with other crafts, if you had them? Say, like Alchemy and Tailoring, to pick a couple common ones.

    Bottom line: as I’ve written and said before, if they implemented combat in these games with the same system that they usually reserve for crafting… well, ProgressQuest would represent the pinnacle of MMO gaming. (8 million subscribers? Prolly not.) As much as I like to bitch about how easy MMOs are, they’ve come a long way since “Press A and pray” (EQ1), in terms of melee combat simulation, at least. Crafting, and many other things, simply need to make the same journey, IMO.

    Heh, I probably should have saved that for a post at my blog. Oh well… hope there’s something in there worth the space on your drive…

  • Heattanu says:
    June 20, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    I have experience with crafting systems in EQ (tailor, cook, fletcher), EQ2 (level 60+ provisioner, sage, tailor, weaponsmith, jeweler), and LOTRO (master artisan scholar). All of these systems have good and bad points, but I would agree that all of them are grindy to the point of boredom. They all follow the basic model of harvest/purchase huge stacks of stuff to make a near infinite amount of vendor fodder in order to level up in skill, all while sitting in front of an unimmersive interface and clicking buttons. All crafting professions do allow you to produce rare items that are usable if you have rare harvests/drops and/or high skill level.

    I don’t have any magic bullets, but a few improvements I would like to see:

    1. Make crafting a visible part of the world. Minimize the user interface and add more avatar/crafting station animations. Most systems have a huge and complex user interface that keeps you from even seeing your avatar or the crafting station. Moreover the user interface is the only place where things are happening. The avatar sits in front of the crafting stations and does some repetitive animation over and over, no matter what is going on. I like EQ2′s crafting event/reaction system, but it need animations rather than the horrible, unimersive screen that shows the events now. The progress/durability bar should be like a mob health bar for adventurers, not something that blocks out the screen. The crafting events should show up as fire, smoke, etc. at the crafting station, with avatar animations for the reactions (e.g. throwing a bucket of water on the fire, yanking a pan off the stove) just like there are animations for combat arts when you go adventuring.

    I don’t support the rhythm (or musical note) approach however as some of us are not very well coordinated. Too twitchy for most MMO gameplay. And lag may interfere with rhythm-based mechanics.

    2. RNG fun. Most crafting systems rely too heavily on the random number generator. While some element of randomness adds a bit of suspense to the crafting process, it should not be the main factor in determining success. EQ2 is best at this because, while the number and severity of crafting events is determined by the RNG, I can get a successful product most of the time if I am paying attention and react appropriately. Although the LOTRO critical success products are very good, I don’t like using rare, expensive or hard-won ingredients and getting poor products in return due to a RNG I have no influence over.

    3. More alternative or bonus crafting advancement. Crafting quests definitely help relieve the boredom of crafting. Btw, why do crafting quests in LOTRO give adventure experience? Writs that advance your character or guild in some other way also make the level grind a little more bearable. It would be nice if there were more alternative methods to creating huge piles of crap as a leveling mechanic. But killing thousands of mobs to level adventuring is pretty much the same model. At least the variety of mobs and scenery is better for adventuring than for crafting.

    Make crafting immersive, more on a par with the development effort given to making adventuring immersive and I think crafting has the potential to reach a wider audience.

  • Ithielle says:
    June 20, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    You seem to realize that crafting balance comes from the availability of raw materials. At least in EQ2 and the upper end of WoW, the more powerful items are ‘balanced’ by their harder to get components.

    And while there’s certainly no reason why it must be done with harvesting, you haven’t really developed a compelling reason why it shouldn’t be. If the components of crafting are dropped while grinding, then tradeskilling becomes just another mob grind again. This is how things were on EQ1, and while that system works harvesting raw materials is a more unique and developed mechanic for it.

    The other question then becomes availability of common components. At least in EQ2, the game I play most often now, the components used to level on really are readily accessible to anyone within that level range with very little work. To keep that a comparable investment vs. return while making components mob drops would flood the bags of those both interested in crafting and not. Common components currently have no value, so they can’t even be vendored. And if someone is looking for ore, they’d be forced to wade through a tide of leather, fiber, gemstones, and all the other components they’d have no use for.

    If something like this were done, I would suggest either stacking self buffs or character flags. Prospecting, skinning, harvesting – things that would allow your character to ‘notice’ crafting components on mobiles. But again its the replacement of one grind with another, a step backwards rather than a step forward.

  • The Primary Principle « p?tsh?t says:
    June 20, 2007 at 10:44 pm

    [...] Darren and Kendrick and Wilhelm2451 have been batting around what I’ll call The Crafting [...]

  • Sulakor says:
    June 21, 2007 at 3:23 am

    There are crafters and there are non-crafters, and there probably always will be. We all play MMOs for differing reasons and we are all trying to achieve something out of it. I am a crafter. I spend a lot of time crafting and yet I don’t enjoy it. That’s right… I don’t enjoy it. So why do I craft?

    The main reason I craft is to make money. I need money to support my adventuring endeavors. Money made crafting lets me buy better equipment for my adventuring. This in turn makes my adventuring easier. That sword of goblin munching is expensive, but I want it, so I need money. Money is made in MMOs either by adventuring, completing quests and selling loot or by crafting an item, food or spell that someone else is prepared to pay for. Both are and should be viable alternatives.

    Sometimes I craft because I really can’t be bothered adventuring. Maybe I’ve just been killed three times and I need a change of pace. Maybe I’m online early waiting for my regular group to show up. I used to craft a lot in Everquest II, especially on the PVP server because, quite frankly, it was a lot safer than going out into the wilds – continuously being griefed is not much fun.

    So does crafting in its current state work? Well from my limited experience I’d have to say “Not Really”

    Unfortunately there are plenty of issues with crafting that seem pretty common across MMOs. Most of the items you make to level up are crap. They do not compare with favourably with loot drops from mobs or from quest rewards. Therefore there is no market for them. The crafter spends his coin making a ton of crap items that he loses money on when he sells them to the npc merchant. Surely even the standard items a crafter makes should have some useful market value. I could spend the equivalent time grinding away on solo, non-heroic mobs and make plenty of money from the loot that drops from those. There must be a reward for the time and effort invested. I’m not saying that it should be as much as time spent killing mobs, after all there’s no inherent danger in crafting, its just time.

    It also seems to be the norm that the items that you create are useless to you unless your crafting level is significantly higher than your adventuring level. Lord of the Rings Online is better than most but Everquest II was horrendous. Unless you were making spells the items you create are useless to you. Interdependency is a curse which must be banished. It is no fun being an armourer that must get leather straps from another player just to be able to make a chest plate. These may be multiplayer games but don’t force grouping upon us. Some people like to solo in a thriving living world – and they should be able to.
    The actual crafting process itself is the areas which needs the most looking into. Everquest II was painful but at least it required a small amount of skill to craft successfully. Lord of the Rings Online has the simplest but most pointless system I have ever seen. In Lord of the Rings Online you stock up on raw materials, increase the counter, hit “Make” and go make a coffee. When you come back you’ll have leveled up – What’s the point of that?

    I’d like to see a decent mini-game made for the crafting process. Something similar to diplomacy in Vanguard or the combat game in Puzzle Quest. There’s plenty of ways this could be done and there are plenty of people that enjoy playing these “casual” type games. I would expect that most crafters like a slower, more intellectual pace at times so give them something that stretches their brain. I’m sure they’ll appreciate it.

  • Lord of the Bland and Repetitive? | Random Battle says:
    June 21, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    [...] Sure. I think most crafting systems need improvement (see my comments on Darren’s crafting post). But that doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile. Some people love crafting like this. I [...]

  • stack says:
    June 22, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    I’d like to see a crafting tree where materials are provided and you can choose between a selection of items, and depending on the item you select in that teir, you open a new tier that is linked to the earlier tier item you crafted.

  • I Think I May Be Wearing Cranky Pants at MMOG Nation says:
    June 28, 2007 at 4:21 am

    [...] same, within the last few weeks it seems like everyone is second guessing years of design work, or dismissing others’ gameplay styles out of [...]

  • Grelf says:
    January 25, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    The real problem is…developers don’t care about crafters THAT much. Most people who play MMORPGs are looking for combat, blood, slaying dragons. For them, crafting is just another mean of obtaining items and get stronger, thus developers most likely direct their efforts on other areas, as a majority of players aren’t really interested in creating, they want action. I have always enjoyed creation, but I hate crafting in MMORPGs. The good thing about creating is that you can leave a mark of creativity on what you produced, you can make it on your own way. And I don’t mean leaving your name on the item, I mean creating something unique, which is obviously not happening in any MMO anytime soon. When someone buys a sword from you, they don’t really care to whom created it, they just want to own it, it just looks like any other sword of the same type. Crafters have NO power of customization, they are simply tools for “creating” (if you can even call that creating) pre-existent models of items. Let’s face the truth, this is no different from grinding quests. Grab 500 of X and 100 of Y, bring it to the NPC, and ta-da! You have a sword!

    Now, imagine if we could shape the sword…and the shape actually affected the best way for it to be used. Hell, we’re the blacksmiths after all, we can do that, can’t we? Of course, if I create a sword with a HUGE blade and a light hilt, it would be completely unbalanced and hard to use. On the other hand, if I created a fine sword having the hilt as its center of mass, it would be quite easy to use. Of course, I can always choose the materials I want to use. Some materials are heavy and resistent, perhaps adding to the durability and strength of a blade, but making it heavier and harder to wield. Or I could use light metals to make it fast and easy to be wielded. Of course the colors of the metals would also affect the final color of the blade. And this is obviously too far from being implemented, because I am just a dreamer. You will never see a crafter being recognized for his beautiful and unique creations in a MMORPG, ever. But just imagine how beautiful crafting would be if it worked this way… It’s not -ONLY- about collecting items, it’s about modeling your final product the way it suits you best. And of course, naming it as you wish.

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