I did quite a bit of raiding with my stint in WoW and the impression that I got after all of those hours is that raiding is as about as useful as tits on a bull. The amount of time spent grinding away at an instance that I’ve seen for the 100th time coupled with the drops that I got resulted in time wasted accomplishing nothing. Well, not really accomplishing nothing…I was getting reputation, so, wheeeee.
The one thing I did like about raiding was the social aspect of it and the sense of accomplishment killing a very large boss for the first time. I was there when our guild first killed Ony, Nef and other big bads and the feeling was great…the first time. Second time was ok, but after it just became a routine thing to do and all that remained was the social aspect. Most MMO offerings today have very predictable character progressions through their worlds. You quest, craft, pvp up to max level and after that, you raid. After you raid, well, you raid some more. Most provide a carrot on a stick type of motivation…oh, I’ve got to get my 6th piece of “kick-ass” armor, or oh I need that uber-dagger of penis enlargement. Once you accomplish that goal, you move on to the next piece and settle in for another 5-10 runs to get it.
This whole article may come off as a bit bitter, and I guess I am to a certain degree because, let’s face it, I’m never getting those hours back. I think the whole raiding concept needs to be looked at in order to figure out how a player can always think they’re getting something out of each raid….and something tangible. There must exist more than a possibility that you’ll receive something out of raid…and I mean every player, not just those who happened to have the most DKP (…or whatever you use…) at the time of the raid.
Here’s an example of how I would design a raiding system of 40 people. For
each boss that is killed, each player gets a choice of a piece of an “epic” item, be it a hilt for a sword/dagger, or a chain link for armor etc. Whatever that boss drops, each player can have a choice to grab a piece of that item. I like the reputation system from WoW, so each player should still rack those up too for side rewards from factions. The final and most important piece of each item is from the “end boss”…so each player must kill the big bad in order to finish any piece they want. Once all of the pieces are collected, the player then assembles it, Bob’s your uncle, and your done. With this kind of system (…tweaked by someone who knows more than me…), each player knows what they’re after, knows that they will get it, and knows how long it will take. With this system, each player has seen the whole raid dungeon and can choose to do it all over again if they want to get more stuff. No more DKP worries, no more raiding and getting nothing for your time, each raid instance is run as many times as there are pieces that YOU WANT…everyone comes out a winner in some fashion.
Obviously…designers must have thought about the above example before because they are smarter than I am when it comes to game design. What do you guys think? What would you like to see in your raiding system? What would get you to participate in the “end game” of an MMO? Why do you think end game raiding has turned out the way it has?
D out
Entries (RSS)
June 15th, 2007 at 8:51 am
I can see quite a few problems here.
I’ve been leading raids for years now, and I’m nowhere near “uber”. We’re not a cutting edge raid force, nor do we ever expect to be. Even so, it doesn’t take long to realize that giving every player on every raid a choice of gear will quickly lead to muddled economics.
Devaluation becomes the norm in such a system, as players no longer see “fabled” level loot as anything but routine, mundane, and yes – expected. Even then, is it really the goal on raids for players like yourself? Honestly, even in your own example you point out that you’re really only raiding due to the social aspects or the feeling of accomplishments you recieve.
So how does awarding EVERYONE with loot further either concept? If loot is the carrot, what happens when you’re full on carrots?
In your proposal here, you’re suggesting everyone get loot on every successful run. This accomplishes two immediate goals that I can see:
1 – Everything except the “end boss” is largely irrelevant. The real payout is at the end. Skip any and everything you can to get to the “end boss”. Dungeon design would become either very linear to prevent skipping content (leading to complaints about timesinks and too much trash) or would just provide the payout very quickly (ala Tier 5 raids in Everquest 2).
2 – Everyone gears up quickly. If there are X gear slots, you’re looking at X raids or less to guarantee all available rewards for all raiders. Then what? What’s the new carrot to get players to show up then?
In short, the idea might sound good on paper, but I think it actually destroys replayability and design innovation – rather than encouraging either.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:17 am
P.S. – I really don’t mean to sound as if I’m constantly coming down on your ideas, Darren. I just happen to hold a different view on many of the concepts you like.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:19 am
No worries Ken…debate is how the best ideas are created. Keep plugging away.
June 15th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Honestly, in my opinion a better system is to continue the idea that an item drops on raids and is immediately useful to multiple raiders – perhaps even all of them. Even if the item itself isn’t immediately useful, it might be a tradeskilling component for multiple items that are – or even a quest starter that results in additional reward options.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:06 am
I’ve got to agree with Kendricke on both the loot becoming mundane and the gearing up too quickly thing. Part of the reason that raids are the way they are at all is because they’re designed to give you something to do at max level. They necessarily involve long (although not necessarily tedious) chains to acquire keys and gain access to them, they require time to learn the encounters, and then they require lots of time to get everything useful out of them and advance to the next level of raiding since you can only get a few useful drops each raid.
I have to admit, as much as I hate raiding for weeks and getting nothing, that it’s much more exciting that one time you DO get something or you FINALLY have enough DKP to buy that coveted item you want than if you had been slowly grinding your way towards it by collecting items each raid.
It’s the “Okay, lets see, five more weeks of raiding and I’ll have that epic hat. Woo.” mentality versus the “Oh SWEET! The epic hat dropped and I finally have enough DKP! SCORE!” mentality.
I think a bigger problem that developers will need to address sooner or later is this: Time invested shouldn’t be tied to epic items. Raiding takes too damned long to organize and do on a regular basis, and that’s why many people skip it. The question is how do you design a way to provide comparable drops to people who play more or less without allowing crossover? Gah. This could be its own blog post. I have work to do.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:10 am
I had two points up there that are seemingly at odds with each other.
Clarification:
1. Raids are necessarily a lengthy process because otherwise players would finish them quickly and still have nothing to do. They’re lengthy because they’re “end-game.”
2. Not everyone has time or inclination to raid, but I believe that they should still have a meaningful way to advance in a game that doesn’t put them at a disadvantage towards people with more time on their hands.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:59 am
I loath raiding, wow burnout, however mmorpgs in there current form, raiding is a necessary evil for end game content.
Is it right or wrong ? hmmm niether, the option is there for those who wish to participate as long as there are other options available to those who dont have time raid … time vs reward (loot) for both play styles.
Is it possible to not cheapen raiding of big bosses and the required time and random loot that maybe 1 or 2 of 40 preople can get, be balanced to those who do not wish to raid … maybe eipc epic quests for them.
I would like to see (wish) where you raid a boss and there is something for every one there that they can use however the raid is a one time deal, you know, the boss is dead, he aint coming back, for those participating in it…. however as correctly stated you would need another alternative to the raiding to supplement the end game. My answer … story driven epic quests, that coincide interact with raiding.
How to do that ? not sure, as an idea it would sound great, possible to do, sure, but what a serious headache in devloping content to keep everyone happy and moving at the end game.
June 15th, 2007 at 10:59 am
I agree! Why can’t there be a system where you can get alternatively good gear, with the same amount of difficulty as a raid, yet doesnt’ require you to be in a raid? I am in a guild with friends and we will never have enough people to do a large raid, we just aren’t that motivated. But it would be nice to have the same chance at really great gear, without having to put yourself thru the difficutly of finding a raiding group.
The end game system is flawed because it doesn’t provide anything for the individual or small group. The game forces you into interaction with larger groups of people that you may not want, requiring you to spend large amounts of time so you can get a small percentage chance at getting a really great item.
Back to the subject at hand. I like Darren’s idea that you at least get something out of your precious time. And what if you get the really great gear quicker, then the developers will just have to work harder at giving people more content so they don’t get bored, which is a win win for everyone. The company gets to put out a new expansion and people can get new content. Isn’t that they way the business model is suppose to work?
June 15th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Sorry that first agreement was with Cameron’s second point. Sorry to confuse. lol
June 15th, 2007 at 11:39 am
I was going to respond to you here, Oakstout, and the post essentially turned into an entry sized article. I’ll respond on the Tracker, instead.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
You know, what about applying the “components for gear” idea of Darren’s to the solo and small group casual end-game, so that non-raiders could still get the gear and take just as long as a raider.
Remember the quest that required “stitches” from Stratholme in WoW? The one for the really good level 60 armor piece? What if, for non-raiders, solo-ers, casuals, et al. they had to do these type of quests. Like Raids, they’d still be repeating content, but it would be content they could digest easier (they being me, btw). I loved Strat runs, but hated that there was nothing to really be had from it that could even remotely compare to raid gear, especially as raid gear got better and better with each massive raid dungeon.
Why not give the small groupers and casuals the same gear but attained in pieces like raiders get it? Not one for every player each run either. But 1 or 2 piece drops per boss, possibly usable by all members in the group as Kendrick suggested, to avoid wasted boss loot.
I suppose the coin system of WoW’s Heroic 5-mans has this idea in mind, but there are 2 problems with it.
Entry to Heroic dungeons, and the insane amount of times you need to run them for 1 piece. Even raiders won’t do their dungeons THAT much. I was decked out in nearly full T1 in just 30 runs back when I did raid.
Anyway, I’ll stop rambling. My point is, you can offer both sides the same rewards… you just have to find out how, which no one has just yet.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
And a second thing is, I could see a variation of Darren’s original idea working… were companies prepared to keep the “carrot” moving onward with new content about as fast as most raid guilds could equip themselves. But I’d much rather see work go into content for all player-types that takes longer. I’m still waiting for WoW to do their own version of EQ’s AA.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
and one more…
http://bildos.blogspot.com/2007/06/that-same-old-debate-raiding.html
Just wanted you to know I linked to you for all 4 of my readers.
June 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
I don’t like the idea suggested in the post at all. I’m not a hard core raider, but I do raid 2-3x a week. I am one of the people who have an obscene amount of time to play, but I also play with a lot of people who only have a few hours. I like the fact that there is a line between the gear of raiders, and non-raiders. I don’t believe they should be equal. Raiders work their ass off for their gear. Not that non-raiders do not also work their ass off, but if you can’t put in the time and dedication to raiding, then why would you deserve (I use that word loosely) raid type gear? Its like punishing people because they can dedicate what it takes to get there. Do I hold it against the higher end guilds who have full sets of EoF gear (EQII)? Of course not, they have the time and dedication it take to get there. It’s just simply not something everyone can do, nor would I expect them to.
There is certainly plenty of non-raid gear out there that’s just as nice and takes lots of work to get, like legendary class sets, and instance dropped items. What it comes down to is if you can’t (or don’t want to) put in the time that these raids take, then you shouldn’t be wearing the gear. Everything can’t just be handed out on a silver platter. If we’re going to give every person in a raid a piece of gear every time they complete the zone.. then why not do it for instances that take just as long to complete as well? Unrest is anywhere from a 2-4 hour zone, there are many KoS raid zones that take less time then that, and you can easily walk away empty-handed from unrest. My casual raiding guild is by no means the best out there, but they do wonderful and they’re a wonderful group of people. You don’t need to dedicate hours and hours and hours in order to raid, they meet together three days a week (and it’s 100% optional). There is certainly opportunities out there for casual players to upgrade themselves just fine with raid gear, you just have to look for it. Expecting to be the best on the server, without dedicating the time that others do, is just unreasonable.
June 15th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Oh.. and if you’re going to dedicate the time, but you don’t want to dedicate it to raiding for ….. raiding is *hard*… it’s co-ordination between 23 (again, on EQII) other people and a whole lot of variables taken into consideration. I don’t think that solo or single group questing is nearly on par with that caliber of gaming. Hence the gear being ‘better’.
June 15th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Stargrace….
So if a non-raider spends a total of 24 hours on an “epic” quest chain, kills monsters for a total of 23,000,000 hit points and a raider spends the same amount of time (i.e. 24 hours) and kills the same amount of hit points (23,000,000)…you’re saying that the raider deserves better gear? This is part of the whole raid question I don’t understand. In the real world, we expect equal pay for equal work (again…with the whole sexual politics debate), yet, because you “raid” you get better gear in an MMO…even if you put in the same amount of time and effort in as a casual gamer who does not raid.
If its a question of elitism, I’ll accept that…but obviously if all things are equal, i.e. time, HPs burned, money etc., surely every player deserves an equal reward for time spent towards a goal.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
This argument comes up constantly on forums for pretty much every game. It spawned a 100 page thread on the old EQ2 forums on “Raid Rewards for Solo Effort”.
People tried to use formulas to equate time to loot; or effort to loot; or difficulty to loot. If a raider spends X time to acquire Y, then a soloer should be able to acquire Y for 24x, right?
Wrong.
As Stargrace states, you can’t calculate for the difficulty involved in organization and coordination. Soloing is a leath difficult path activity precisely because you don’t have to wait for or deal with other players. That, in and of itself, is a difficulty factor you simply can’t equate in solo or even non-raid group play.
Developers know and understand this, which is precisely why raiders get the best content. It’s not because they hate soloers or group players. It’s because raiding is inherently more difficult just from the perspective that it takes teamwork, organization, and coordination to pull off.
Oh sure, you personally may not have to work as hard on a 24 or 25 person raid force, but there’s absolutely a higher degree of work involved overall to accomplish those goals – work that simply can’t be equated in any amount of X’s or Y’s to solo play. It’s not a matter of time or difficulty, because there’s no direct apples to apples comparison.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Just to further clarify, I believe your point is flawed because you’re basing your argument on a flawed premise:
“In the real world, we expect equal pay for equal work (again…with the whole sexual politics debate), yet, because you “raid” you get better gear in an MMO…even if you put in the same amount of time and effort in as a casual gamer who does not raid.”
You’re premise assumes “same amount of time and effort” between those who raid and those who do not, but by its very existance requiring multiple persons, raiding effort cannot equate to soloing effort.
Some activities require multiple people. Just because 4 guys can carry a piano up four flights of stairs in 15 minutes doesn’t mean one of the guys can suddenly do it by himself if he just puts in an hour or two.
That’s like saying you only need one guy to build a skyscraper…if he just puts in enough time. Only one person is needed to win the World Series…if he just tries hard enough.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
But kendricke its the players choice to do the raiding, you should not be rewarded more because its a pain in the ass to organize a raid, or you just spent 2 hours getting everyone together.
Yes, I know time vs reward, but well written content can be just a challenging for the solo player as a raid player. Raiding is just a cheap fix to keep people occupied because no one has really come up with compelling and meanigful end game content that all types of players can enjoy.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
See, Kendricke, I’m not saying your logic is flawed as it applies to the REAL WORLD, but why must it apply to SERVICE we’re all paying EQUAL amounts of money for?
If there’s one thing that makes your argument null, it’s that we’re not talking about real world. Leave the real world out of it. We’re talking about a game that each and every one of us pays equally for. We should all be able to get the same out of it no matter how we prefer to play.
(I’m not trying to sound like I’m against you, as you stated to Darren. Just differences in opinion.)
June 15th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
I think the premise is actually quite valid actually.
If casuals kill a a series of mobs with 25,000,0000 hit points, spend 24 hours doing it is paying the same $15 as raider, I think the reward given to the casual should be of equal value if 24 raiders killed one big bad with 25,000,000 hit points. I personally don’t think that casuals should miss out content just because they did not organize and coordinate or participate in a team work event. If the delta in quality of items is solely based on the effort it takes to organize and coordinate raids, then I think the raid system is inherently flawed from a design and game play point of view.
I think there is some better solution out there that rewards time and effort…thats all. What does it look like? I have no idea…I’m not a game designer, just a blogger. They have the imaginations…let them work out how to do it, but I refuse to believe that it’s not possible to do.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
answer maybe found in heros journey, gm made content specific for a specific grp of players. Rewards can be the same but the overall experince can be tailored to the # of people participating the encounter / quest.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
…there you go Pixey. Creative solutions, that’s all I’m asking for.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Bildo, I once made a pretty extensive posting on the subject of “entitlement”. I’ll happily repost it if you’d like a response.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Just post the link Ken.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
continue from prev post … That is to say ‘50 people form up to kill a dragon to free the damsel (trite I know but oh well), where as 5 people form up to free the damsel from the dragon but so it via stealth. equal reward for the same goal different experience for the players. This can be tailored by gm , or even better give multiple options for the quest / raid based on number of players entering the instance ….
June 15th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
…number 2 for Pixey.
..next idea please.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
…and might I add that out of all the posters, Pixey is the only one answering my questions form the post. Pixey can go home early, the rest are staying after the bell.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
lol do i get a cookie as well
June 15th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
I wasn’t aware we were grading contributors to the blog. I was under some manner of (apparently mistaken) belief that “debate is how the best ideas are created.”
I’ll happily start posting only ideas you feel are on task since we’re awarding cookies.
June 15th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
…and of course, the smiley was left out.
June 15th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
[...] up today?? Because the old “Solo vs. Raid” subject is rearing it’s ugly head once more.? Unsuprisingly, players who feel that raiders are unfairly given rewards want similar or even [...]
June 15th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
He he Kendricke, sarcasm is going to win any debates, although good point and well presented … however I see havnt seem any ‘ideas’ coming from you on how to address the issue other than you defending raiders getting the best content …
June 15th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Pixey,
1 – If someone keeps telling me I need to find the best way to fix a leaky faucet…but I can see the faucet isn’t leaking, I’m not typically going to try too hard to come up with a “creative solution” to fix the leak. I’m probably going to spend my efforts trying to explain to the people crowded in my kitchen that there isn’t really a leak…
2 – I guess you can just remove my third comment down then. The one where I point out ways to utilize gear that drops which can be used by more members of the raid force.
3 – I’d sure love to hear which of you have actually lead or been an officer on a raid force which attempted anything close to a half dozen solid, full size raids. I don’t need to hear about cutting edge content or not. I just want to know if Stargace and I are the only people who have even been anywhere near the administration/organization end of a dedicated raid force.
4 – Please explain why you need raid level gear for non-raid level activities? Is there a case for this?
June 15th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
1. Design a better faucet.
2. agreed.
3. /raises hand. Rogue leader, Recruiting Officer at one time in WoW…understand workload. Regardless…not being an officer or raid leader does not disqualify anyone from designing a better faucet.
4. Already have. Doesn’t need to be a case to start thinking of better way of doing things…thinking outside the box ftw.
June 15th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Was an officer and occasional raid leader for Trinity Elite back when I did raid in WoW. I’m not saying raiding isn’t a tremendous undertaking, Ken. It’s just not necessarily the end all be all of deserving rewards.
See, this is why it needs to be forgotten. It causes more trouble for each game it’s in than it’s really worth.
Small group and solo content, FTW.
June 15th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Oh and replied to you with a very long comment over…
http://bildos.blogspot.com/2007/06/that-same-old-debate-raiding.html
June 15th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
I’d be very interested in seeing an MMO designed without raid level content. I think it’s a fascinating concept, and I’d love to see such an idea in action, if for no other reason that intellectual curiosity.
I personally wouldn’t likely be there, but that’s just me and mine. We’re not hardcore raiders by any means, but truly it’s one of the reasons we still play.
June 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Fair enough, Ken. And I want to say that it’s been a pleasure discussing this with you. I’m never one to shoot down others’ enjoyment. I just state my opinion and hope they won’t crap on mine, which you haven’t. Always nice to meet a civil person, even if you don’t see eye to eye.
For a game that will have no “raids”, check out Spellborn. Absolutely none, last I heard. Now if it ever makes it out, that’s another story. Deep in Beta I believe though.
June 15th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Darren, regarding innovation and “outside the box” thinking, Moorgard said something I thought was quite relevant today (http://www.moorgard.com/?p=134#comments) :
“I love doing things in new and different ways as long as there’s a good reason behind it other than just the desire to be different. When I look at features of MMOs, I try to ask “Was this fun?” If the answer is yes, then I ask “What made it fun?” And then I ask “Is there a different way to achieve that same feeling of fun and make it even better?”
If the answer to the last one is no, then you shouldn’t feel like you have to do it differently. There are some things that have been done in MMOs that, to be frank, it’s really hard to think of some other way to do it that’s better in any way. Critics may call you derivative, but there’s no shame in delivering something you know works well.
Doing something differently purely for the sake of being different is a dangerous trap that is easy to fall into. EQ2 did at launch, and paid the price for it, I think.
It seems to me that innovation usually comes not from trying to break out of a box, but rather by giving yourself the freedom to not even realize the box is there.”
June 15th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Ken, I already put my idea out there of not necessarily eliminating raiding but making raiding something everyone can do. Its just customized to how you wish to experience the raid, with 25 people, or with 5 people. hard core or casual.
As for organizing raids, yes I have done it, back in eq 1 days on terris thule, when both myself and wife ran a guild there. Did i enjoy it at the time, yes. Was it rewarding, yes. But now a days I dont have the time to commit to this type of activity. Hence why I like to put my time to thinking about intersting ideas involving ways to improve morpgs so that all can enjoy, and that also includes the raiding aspect of the game.
Which brings me to something I was nt going to mention yet, but this is a good a time as any. Strangelands is going to be more than just a blog but an attempt to create something based on bloggers ideas of what makes a great mmorpg. (cuppy gave me the idea in one of her posts).
I have an idea for a frame work of a game, and through the blogging comunity want to see how far we as a collective can go in designing a game based on there ideas with in this frame work. Who knows where it will go and even if it would be possible to make any impact of the gaming world and it this type of discussion Ken, that I like to see and hopefully can use in shaping strangelands.
June 15th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
I agree with Darren.
The best argument against raiding being “the all and end all” of the end game is that raiding is “niche”. Out of the 5 people I know in “real life” that play MMO’s, not one of them raids. These are 2 MMOG “vets” and 3 newer (since SWG) players. It seems to be the same on many forums and guilds I’ve been in as well, a large percentage of people just don’t like them, or can’t make the time to be part of them.
Of those that just don’t like them, many are solo/small group oriented. They get to the “end game” and basically, the game as they knew it ends. Then the choice becomes “conform or leave”. Of the 5 people I know, 4 leave (the other one starts doing weird stuff where he sets his own in game goals…like getting the guild to X level in EQ2….on his own).
I know why devs like them, they’re easy enough to add (straight forward level design type designing), they’re “tried and true” and they are a great time sink. They’re a much better alternative to actually thinking up brand new game mechanics and systems.
Most games these days seem to be adding to player choice. So why not add to the players choice in the end game as well?
Hell, the worst that could happen is my 5 mates will actually keep playing after the “end game” for once…
June 16th, 2007 at 3:53 am
“Of those that just don’t like them, many are solo/small group oriented. They get to the “end game” and basically, the game as they knew it ends.”
Remove raiding from MMO’s. How does this change the above statement?
What you’re looking for is more “end game” content that isn’t raiding. That’s fine. I’m all for more content. I’m for more, more, more, more, MORE of pretty much everything that’s already in the games I play: more players, more loot, more armor graphics, more guilds, more housing, more solo content, more quests, more instances, more overland zones, more grouping dungeons, and yes, more raids.
I don’t advocate removing your favored “niche” content. Why the hostility toward mine?
See, that’s really the crux of it for me. It’s never enough to say, “hey, I’d like more content, please”. It’s always some form of the “hey, there’s not enough content for me – how about cutting out that guy’s content so I can get more content for me”.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:56 am
P.S. – I realize that your 5 mates make up a massive sampling to pull data from. Care to hear the sampling of the players I deal with? I guarantee I could name a few hundred (whom I group with or speak with regularly) who enjoy raiding.
Personally, I’d rather see raiding as more accessible than to remove it. Or is that the “creative alternative” here – can’t make it better, so yank it.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:51 am
[...] looks like Darren sparked a pretty hot debate with his “Raid be Gone” post, suggesting an alternate way to handle raiding and loot. Bildo has a bit more to say on [...]
June 18th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
[...] just because they did such a great job as support (healing, rezzing, etc). The points/money are distributed very fairly to those killing and those supporting which makes the game very [...]
June 18th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I agree with Darren. I have played MMORPG’s since 1999 and in all of them the end game has been large group raiding. I can’t commit the 3-6 hours of continuous game time required to participate in a raid. And because of that I will never get to see all of the game content. However if I play for 12 months I have paid the same amount as someone who plays for 5 or more continuous hours a day. Now for me the publishers of the games would rather have 100 players like me, than 25-40 hard core raiders. Why because they would have to create and sustain far less content for the same return. I don’t think that today’s game designers would get away with providing a non-raiding end-game because all of the large guilds and hardcore raiders would spit their dummies out and ruin the game for the rest of us. Just a thought!
June 18th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Takargi:
My girlfriend can’t deal with rides that spin her in a circle. I love those rides. Oh, she can handle roller coasters, high speed drops, bumper cars, and even going upside down no problem…but if it spins her in a continous circle, she just can’t handle it.
Now, obviously amusement parks build rides that push and pull and swing people in circles. Should they stop building such rides because of people like my girlfriend? Should she send in complaints to management or demand part of her admission cost back because she can’t deal with those specific rides?
It sounds silly when I bring up the situation in that way, right? To me, the argument about raid content is just as silly, really. If you don’t want to raid, don’t raid. If there’s not enough end game content for your particular playstyle, then ask for more end game content for your particular playstyle.
If you don’t like raiding, that’s no big deal, right? Just ignore the raiding. If the raiding suddenly didn’t exist, would the game change for you in a positive way? Would it change at all?
I’d wager it doesn’t change at all for you if raiding was just flat out removed from your favorite game. If that’s the only change, then how does that affect non-raiders?
Seriously, think about it a moment. Take World of Warcraft and outright remove raiding flat out. How does this change the game for someone who never raids? It doesn’t affect them hardly at all, right? Remove raids from Everquest or Everquest II – same thing, right? It barely affects nightly gameplay at all. You’re still able to solo and you’re still able to group.
So, instead of removing raiding…why not ask for more solo or group content. Instead of worrying about what everyone else is doing with their time, worry about what you’re doing with your own.
Seriously, if these discussions couldn’t mention raid loot at all, would there even be a discussion?
June 18th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
I think thats what we’re asking Ken…another ride in the amusement park besides one that spins.
Don’t take raiding out…lets add other end-game mechanisms to cover other styles of gameplay. Other end-game mechanisms that are on par with raiding…cause you’re right, we can’t take away an element of the game that is attractive to other members of the MMO population.
June 18th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
I take your point Ken, and I agree with what you are saying. The point I am trying to make is that there is no alternative at the moment. And I find myself not wanting to reach the level cap in games because I know that the content will dry up for me eventually.
Can I me ask you a question. If raids where limited to say 10-man would it make any difference to your playstyle?
June 19th, 2007 at 7:08 am
In EQ2, some raids are limited to 12 man, and we run those from time to time. Most raids are limited to 24, and we run those with anywhere from 15 on up. We raid for 3 hours at a time. Once we hit the 3 hour mark, we thank everyone for coming and that’s that.
To me, raiding is infinately better than the old days of 72 man Planar raids in old Everquest, where raids took 5+ continuous hours. I could get around 30-36 raiders together without much problem, but once you got beyond that, it was a true hassle to organize that many raiders at once – especially with the intent of keeping them around for that long.
The other thing I don’t think people get is that raiding isn’t some mythical land of milk, honey, and infinate replayability. People raid primarily for loot.
As an example, we’ve raided Vyemm’s Laboratory around 50 times now. That’s once a week for a year. Some of my members are gearing up their third character in there now.
I can honestly say that none of my members really “enjoys” hitting Vyemm’s Laboratory. However, a lot of loot drops which can be used to quickly gear up a new raider in no time flat. We can run Vyemm’s with less than 2 groups if we want to bother with it.
We’re not raiding Vyemm’s because it’s “enjoyable”. We raid it because it’s a means to an end.
Seriously, how much “fun” is Obelisk of Lost Souls by the 20th run? Think it will still have the charm on your 50th run through?
June 19th, 2007 at 11:54 am
[...] I wasn’t surprised when I read Darren’s post on his impressions of raiding and what it has become, specifically in WoW, as (no offence to him) I [...]
June 19th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
As it is, raiding gets you the best gear. That’s so much the standard that no-one questions it.
What if something other than raiding got you the best gear? Would raiding still be fun for you, Kendricke? Or am I talking about wrecking the game?
June 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
[...] of people thought (….and mistakingly so..) that my last article was either about getting rid of raiding, or the un-winnable hardcore vs casual debate, and even a [...]