OK…I’ll bite, because it’s an obvious simple answer that escapes even the most supposedly brilliant blogger minds:
So, I ask the “common sense gamer” why he is flabbergasted by a $10 mount when it is obvious players are willing spend 3 times that amount just to access a service that will allow them the pleasure of working hard to obtain a mount.
…because gamers, as well as MMO companies don’t know any better at this point and have zero frame of reference for what this stuff is actually worth.
Again, this is all an experiment and we need to set the expectation as customers. But hey, if we all want to pay $10 for convenience instead of new EXPERIENCES, by all means…a fool and his money and all that jazz.
Keep in mind this though when buying that convenient $10 item that gets you nothing except getting someplace 60% faster:
- Guild Wars: Game of the Year Edition, on Steam: $19.99
- Eve Online: Apocrypha, on Steam: $14.99
- City of Heroes, yeah…on Steam for $19.99
- Age of Conan…oh…look at that. On Steam for for $19.99
So….don’t sit there and tell me that this is all good, and la la la la laaaaaa, when you can get ENTIRE GAMES (…say it again…EXPERIENCES…) for around the same price
…fool and his money. Go crazy. Knock yourself out…but your fuckin off your rocker if that horse is anywhere near making sense in this place we call reality.
D out.
EDIT:
Oh…one more thing I forgot to mention regarding this arguement from Potshot:
Using the epic flyer as an example, if I really applied myself, I could probably log on and earn a few hundred gold a day without outlevelling our group too much in a relatively small amount of time each session. At 200 gold a session, that would take about 25 sessions to yield the 5,000 gold for the skill and the mount. If I played an average session every other day, that would be about 50 days or almost two months of just casual self-gold farming. All other things equal, I should be ok with paying the equivalent of about $30 for my epic flyer (or the equivalent in game currency).
Well, hey…if you were ONLY spending those two months grinding for that epic flyer, than I would completely agree with you…but you aren’t, are you. During that time, I would imagine that you are doing the following:
a) questing
b) crafting
c) PvPing
d) experiencing new content while doing a-c to support getting the epic
So you’re not even close to really spending $30 on just that mount…that’s a flawed argument. You’ve gotten more out of your $30 than just the mount, you’ve gotten “2 months” of content experience…haven’t you.
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July 5th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Except for GuildWars (which will sell you things) the examples you have cited all come with a monthly charge, so they are not ENTIRE GAMES (or EXPERIENCES) for the prices you quote, they are merely tickets to spend $15 a month for the experience.
To push your logic further, MMOs are a case of a fool and his money. After all, I can buy plenty of fine games for $20-40 that don’t charge me a dime once I have installed them. Go knock yourself out.
July 5th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
You posted your edit while I was commenting, so I have this addition.
Why are you even complaining about the horse then? You can earn the diamonds for it in game. As you say, you would get additional experience, do additional quests, have additional fun. By that logic, if the game was depending on horse sales, or like items, it should go out of business very shortly because we’re there to have fun, right? Seriously, nobody will buy the horse if you are correct and they will either change the price or stop trying to sell it.
And if the horse stays there at $10 and the game thrives, well Darren….
(I think I detect a topic for the next SWUT. Darren rant! Darren rant!)
July 5th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Buying things like horses is how the game makes money. If you like the game you need to support it by buying stuff. If you buy stuff then the company has money for things like development of new content. Therefore buying a horse is buying new experiences since the game company will have money to produce new content for you to experience. Not that hard of a concept.
July 5th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I’m finding this line of discussion very interesting, because value for the dollar is something very important in my world, and I’m sure a lot of other people’s as well.
I’d consider myself a casual MMO player. I’ve played pretty much every major subscription MMO (and Guild Wars) up to max level or 90% of max and then leave for other experiences. I simply don’t have the time or inclination for raid-level content, so that is typically when I leave to try another game. Bear in mind, that is my perspective when discussing this topic.
Basically, I see an MMO as an amusement park. An amusement park offers a different type of experience than an experience like a book, movie or non-mmo video game. You may as well call WOW “Azeroth Fun Land,” Guild Wars “Ascalon Adventure Land,” or Eve Online “The Blood-Thirsty Shark Tank Of Pain And Suffering”. And to this effect, there are different ways to pay for entry into a Theme Park. In the past, there was pretty much one model… namely the “Parking Fee + Season Pass”. First you pay to park (ie, buy the game) then you pay ahead for a block of time, be it a month, three months, etc. and you get to try out all the rides (ie. quests, zones and dungeons) for that time. Of course, this works great if there are only one or two parks for you to visit. However, now there are so many offerings, from so many vendors. I would love to visit all the different parks, but I really can’t justify a season pass every time. I just don’t have enough time in my day to make it worth the money.
So, vendors are now moving to a pay-per-experience model. In my opinion, the best execution of this model would be to allow anyone to walk into the park, look around and decide which rides appeal to them. Then, the customer can pay for whatever ride they like individually. One execution of this I can imagine (though, I don’t know if this is how they’ll do it) is in the new Star Wars MMO. You could start on the starter planet and there can be several hours of content there, and when you are done you can then travel to other planets in the Star Wars universe for new and distinct adventures and experiences. Each new planet will come with a nominal fee. Again, this goes back to choosing the amusement park rides that interest you the most.
Now, things like this $10 horse. Here, you are paying for something that supposedly enhances your existing experience (ie. letting you get from A to B faster), instead of providing a new experience. To me, material like this is akin to the concession stands. While at the theme park, the experience is more enjoyable with a huge cup of soda pop in your hand. However, you’re paying a ridiculous mark-up for that soda. Being the free-market capitalist that I am, I really do think it’s within the game producer’s right to charge whatever customers are willing to pay for such niceties. However, for me personally, I would never justify paying that much for a soda pop.
It will be interesting to see where things go in the new MMO micro transaction economy. I suppose anything is better than the “Pay real money for a virtual key to unlock a chest for random loot” model… but that’s another rant altogether
Cheers!
July 5th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
For me it would be a time and money trade off. The reality is that I would be doing all of those other things you mention which would come at the expense of min/maxing my gold production. Sure, I’d make some while playing the game in the manner I want, but likely well below the rate at which I could by grinding, so my gold run rate would extend well beyond my 50 day example (i.e., more subscription periods) but I would “get back” some amount of entertainment value since I was merely playing to have “fun” which would likely yield some amount of income. So 50 days out, I find myself having been entertained to the tune of $30 and still wanting 2000-3000 gold (maybe more).
I can tell you right now, that I would not be able given my current RL constraints and appetite for the grind to maintain a 200 gold every other day pace for nearly two months. It would feel like too much of a job. I picked the 50 day example because it would mean doing the equivalent of about 10 dailies (at about 20 gold per) each session which could probably be done in the mythical 2 hour session with discipline.
Lets say that my “natural” rate of gold production is 1000 gold a month. At that rate it would take 5 months to raise the funds, but I would be getting that 1000 gold almost as a bonus to the full entertainment value I received for each of those months. What would I pay to accelerate that stream of income? I know that in 5 months or so, doing nothing other than playing as I do, I’ll end up with the gold.
For me, that would be at least $10, maybe as much as $25. For our groupmates where that time would be more like a year given their RL constraints, that would probably be cheap and actually add to the ROI of their subscription since they could access and experience additional context more quickly for their shorter play budgets.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
… and I can’t believe no one has mentioned anything about beating a dead horse yet.
July 5th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Heheh – even though all the responses above have pointed out the obvious flaws in your thinking, I’ll add this:
price of RoM with 3 months play time with permanent mount = $10
price of EvE with 3 months play time = $45
price of City of Heros with 3 months play time = $50
price Age of Conan with 3 months play time = $50
lol! I hope this makes you feel better about parting with $10 now.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Darren,
I already addressed your pricing argument on my own site, and I think you’re missing the full impact of what a subscription game costs. Lemme correct your post, just for kicks…. because aside from Guild Wars, you got your prices wrong:
- Eve Online: Apocrypha, on Steam: $14.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
- City of Heroes, yeah…on Steam for $19.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
- Age of Conan…oh…look at that. On Steam for for $19.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
That Runes of Magic horse continues to look like an insanely good steal considering the game costs me $0 plus an additional $0 per month to play it.
July 5th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Continuing Andrew’s line of thinking, I’ll cover Guild Wars, which he skipped over. $19.99 on Steam (or anywhere else, that is the normal price for the GOTY Edition) which only gets you Prophecies and the GOTY bonus weapons. If I want the full Guild Wars experience, I’ll also want the Factions and Nightfall campaigns at $29.99 each. In my case I also bought two additional character slots at $9.99 each. Oh and let’s not forget maxing out the newly available storage panes, so 4 of those at $9.99 each as well. Now I’m up to $139.91 for all that at the current prices. Considering I bought all the campaigns when they were new and paid full price at the time for them, my personal cost was a little higher. So a little more than one year of a subscription MMO and afterwards I have Guild Wars free for life. Kinda like the LOTRO Lifetime Membership, I suppose.
Comparing cheap subscription games to a one-time price doesn’t quite cut it in my book though, considering you’re paying that $15/month regardless what you do (if anything) that month. So far it sounds like you’ve spent nothing whatsoever in RoM, but you like the game (more or less?) and would like to see it continue, so what’s wrong with a one-time $10 for a mount if you spend nothing whatsoever during the remainder of your time in the game? And isn’t $10 for the 65% mounts? I thought I saw the 60% ones at a much lower price, but I may be mistaken.
July 5th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
“… and I can’t believe no one has mentioned anything about beating a dead horse yet.
”
Still a bunch of horse references and metaphors to work through before we kill the beast and begin beating it. We haven’t even made it to Richard III.
Remember what the man said, “Don’t beat a dead horse, that’s perverted.”
July 5th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Two months experience versus something you might use for years. Hmmm… Sorry, $10 horse that you get to keep is still cheaper than a $20 with $15 monthly fee to play.
You fail at economics. I’ll take the free game with RMT please, because subscriptions just drain the wallet too much.
July 5th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
“…because gamers, as well as MMO companies don’t know any better at this point and have zero frame of reference for what this stuff is actually worth.”
The arrogance of that line makes the text which followed irrelevant. How you do happen to have a frame of reference or better knowledge than the rest of us “fools”? This like many MMO topics has turned into a religious debate so I’m just gonna go buy a few horses to lead Frogster into thinking they are not charging enough!
July 5th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@ p@tsh@t: well, you know what they say about zombie horses…
July 5th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
To be fair though, if you are going to cite sub fees for a MMO, you need to cite the other things a F2P often requires you to buy to make the experience playable, like a personal shop, or additional item storage on your character and in a bank, or convienience items which are so much of a pain in the ass to get timewise that its more sense to pay the buck rather than spend three hours.
If you only count the mount, you are getting a very stripped down experience in F2P. The plus side of f2p is that you can pay as much or as little as you like concerning the game experience, but usually the game is designed to encourage paying more, and it’s pretty easy to equal a sub fees and even a retail box in no time.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
You actually get a personal house (with hot maid) and access to the AH in RoM for the low low price of FREE
July 5th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Free Realms – Free
Runes of Magic – Free
Domain of Heroes – Free
Battlefield Heroes – Free
I just whooped your list and not one of mine requires an “access fee” (aka subscription).
If you want to make an argument about value, make it about value. Then, look at what *value* players place on things in the MMO market. Mounts are a good example. I’ve known several WoW players that have spent upwards of $1,000 to buy a Spectral Tiger mount. Or at the current going rate, a basic mount in WoW would cost around $4.00 (to buy 100 gold). So, RoM *feeling it out* at $10 looks to be about right. Your sensationalist idea that they are just pulling it out of their ass is nonsense.
Next, how is the argument “flawed” by calculating the amount of time an epic flyer would take to achieve. Whether a player does it in 3 months or 1 year, if it takes 3 months of game-play to achieve something, then the value of that “something” is whatever 3 months of playtime amounts to. In the end, $30 of time was spent achieving that mount.
Secondly, I agree that a player pays to access the service and spending more time playing increases the bang for their buck. Just like someone spending $10 on a mount, the more they play, the more bang for their buck! Amazing concept!
July 5th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Your money is not necessarily worth what everyone else’s is.
The fact of the matter is, that $10 to some people isn’t too much to pay for a horse. Certainly not for me, certainly not for the friends I know who play. I’d expect to make a purchase like that once a month, maybe twice or three times. I used to pay $40/month for the EQ Legends server though, so I spend my money different as a gamer than most.
Either way, this game runs off people buying digital goods like horses with their money. There is a market out there for it. It just doesn’t include you =P
July 5th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
“I’ve known several WoW players that have spent upwards of $1,000 to buy a Spectral Tiger mount.”
…that’s because they’re idiots.
“Or at the current going rate, a basic mount in WoW would cost around $4.00 (to buy 100 gold). So, RoM *feeling it out* at $10 looks to be about right.”
..double the price is right?
“Next, how is the argument “flawed” by calculating the amount of time an epic flyer would take to achieve. Whether a player does it in 3 months or 1 year, if it takes 3 months of game-play to achieve something, then the value of that “something” is whatever 3 months of playtime amounts to. In the end, $30 of time was spent achieving that mount.”
…because you’re assuming that is all they are doing in the game? Are they? No. Again…read what I said. They are questing. Crafting. PvPing. They are getting a PLAYER EXPERIENCE while saving up for that mount. So…the $30 is not spent just on the mount….so, it’s a flawed argument to say they are spending $30 for that mount…because they aren’t.
“Secondly, I agree that a player pays to access the service and spending more time playing increases the bang for their buck. Just like someone spending $10 on a mount, the more they play, the more bang for their buck! Amazing concept!”
…hey…if you think what amounts to a 60% speed buff is worth $10…go crazy. Fool and his money and all that jazz.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
@ Andrew:
“I already addressed your pricing argument on my own site, and I think you’re missing the full impact of what a subscription game costs. Lemme correct your post, just for kicks…. because aside from Guild Wars, you got your prices wrong:
- Eve Online: Apocrypha, on Steam: $14.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
- City of Heroes, yeah…on Steam for $19.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
- Age of Conan…oh…look at that. On Steam for for $19.99 + $15 for every subsequent month after the first
That Runes of Magic horse continues to look like an insanely good steal considering the game costs me $0 plus an additional $0 per month to play it.”
…and your point is? You’re paying for a full game experience for $30 instead of no experience for $10.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
@ Cuppy:
You aren’t allowed to comment on virtual horses considering how much you spent on a real one
July 5th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
@ John:
“Except for GuildWars (which will sell you things) the examples you have cited all come with a monthly charge, so they are not ENTIRE GAMES (or EXPERIENCES) for the prices you quote, they are merely tickets to spend $15 a month for the experience.
To push your logic further, MMOs are a case of a fool and his money. After all, I can buy plenty of fine games for $20-40 that don’t charge me a dime once I have installed them. Go knock yourself out.”
…and here’s another kicker: you don’t own any of the stuff you buy anyway.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
@Darren:
“…and your point is? You’re paying for a full game experience for $30 instead of no experience for $10.”
You continue to completely disregard the mountain of content that you’re playing for FREE in RoM. That content, if considered in a vaccuum, is infinitely better value for money than any subscription game than you can name in sheer economic terms.
*THAT* is central to the point that I, and others, are making. The game is free to play – that MUST be accounted for somewhere in your value math, or else you’ll never be able to accept RMT systems. You simply cannot ignore the lack of a box price and subscription fee and simultaneously rail against the RMT prices – the two factors are intertwined.
Think about it: selling items in the RoM shop is the manner in which the development costs, hardware costs, and ongoing hosting fees are recouped.
And just to make the system extra-fair, RoM allows you to earn the items using in game currency. All that will cost you is your time…. just like grinding the cash for a WoW mount “only” costs time (once your subs are paid and you own the box).
As an aside, I think you’re misreading Potshot…. he’s talking about grinding gold, which is an extremely shallow player “experience” in WoW I’m afraid. There’s very little “Experience” to be had… at least not in the good/fun sense of the term.
July 5th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Thing that I’m racking my brains about is trying to see where you see their business model (if you’ve thought this through).
There’s a theory around the blogosphere that RMT games are played by people who can be categorised as 80/19/1. That is
80% of players never pay a cent
19% of players will buy to a limited extent things that make a big impact on their gameplay (like this horse).
1% of players will spend big.
If they get $0 from the 80%, about a horse-sized transaction per month from the 19% and about $50 per month from the 1% then they will receive S2.40 per month per player. In other words they need to be 6 times the size of where they would have been as a sub-based game in order for their business model to justify itself. If you halve the prices they need to be 12 times as big.
Could they do that? Can they run a business on 80% of players not paying at all, 19% paying $3 bucks once every month or two and 1% paying $15-$20?
If they can it’s clearly very good for the players. But it then in turn invalidates the notion that free2p is the future. WoW2, Eve2 and EQ3 will never want that business model over $15 per month per person as it’s a huge drop in revenue. So it’s only a model for B list games.
So what I’m asking is that if $10 is too expensive does that mean RMT is not the future?
July 6th, 2009 at 1:29 am
@Darren
“…and here’s another kicker: you don’t own any of the stuff you buy anyway.”
You don’t own any of the stuff you earn via questing, grinding, or any other method in an MMO. That puts them all on an equal footing. Thanks for pointing that out.
I can go along with you thinking the horse is over priced. Seems like it to me too. But you seem to be driving towards the idea that there is some absolute, market determined, right price for all occasions that will satisfy you, who wants to spend a quarter on the horse (a quarter horse, get it?) and the person who is totally invested in the game and sees a $10 commitment spread over months and months of play as a worthwhile.
July 6th, 2009 at 1:42 am
“…and your point is? You’re paying for a full game experience for $30 instead of no experience for $10.”
Besides the horse, which is an optional purchase, there is no content you have to pay for with RL $ in RoM. In fact, I get the feeling you are now just arguing to be stubborn since you hAven’t made a valid point to speak of in any of your 3 posts on the subject of rmt in RoM. Or is this some sadistic social experiment to see who loses it first?
July 6th, 2009 at 2:54 am
Hmm.. so your MMO subscription is your round the country vacation. Next you pick your mode of travel. You could walk.. just might take forever. Maybe buy a bike, car or private jet if you really want the speed and convienence. Most trips, its about getting from A to B to C, and not wanting ot see what is in between. So the faster you can get to each location, the more time you have to actually spend there and enjoy yourself.
I would have said rent, but since this is a permanent horse, its more like buying.
Is it worth 10 bucks? I’m not sure. If I played the game for a year and got that much use out of it, then yeah, maybe it would be. If I’m just a part time players, then no, it wouldn’t be for me. In the end though, it’s worth what people will pay for it.
Brand new top of the line computers arne’t worth double the price of 3 month old systems, but there are some people that still buy them. I’d bet that eventually they will lower the price for folks like you and I. Probably about the same time they introduce a 100% speed horse…heh
July 6th, 2009 at 3:31 am
[...] on Runes of Magic 6 07 2009 This is a 30 second impression. After the all the hullabaloo and kerfuffle about the $10 Runes of Magic Horse, I thought I’d better actually hoof it on [...]
July 6th, 2009 at 5:41 am
Jeepers Harry H Corbett are you still on about this bloody horse… Bad boy, dirty boy, get in your bed!
July 6th, 2009 at 8:38 am
I get what you’re saying and I agree, Darren.
Are you worried yet?
July 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am
[...] Gamer, micropayments, MMO | Leave a Comment Darren, over at Common Sense Gamer, is peeved about being asked to pay ten bucks for a horse in Runes of Magic. He’d prefer to pay for new [...]
July 6th, 2009 at 9:59 am
[...] thinks there is a simple answer, which runs along the lines of “if you buy the horse, you’re an idiot.” (The [...]
July 6th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Bah my comments aren’t showing up through certain browsers. Anyway this comment thread is awesome. Never thought I would see so many people get riled up over a 10 dollar digital horse. I guess I thought nothing of it. It is a horse, it is 10 dollars real money, it is an RMT game. What is the big deal?
July 6th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Because Hudson, it isn’t RMT. Micro-transactions are a business model initiated by the developer. RMT is a side-show to subscription games, not initiated by the developer, and in most cases outright banned. RMT can be a business model as well, with the developer controlling the market and taking their cut, but it would be a player driven market. SOE sort of dabbles in RMT/Microtransaction/Subscription games with EQ2 and Vanguard.
Second, Andrew makes the point very well. Darren continually does not assign value to the free game that most micro-transaction models are based on.
November 7th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
[...] wonder what the Common Sense Gamer has to say about this (elbows him in ribs and [...]
November 8th, 2009 at 2:19 am
I wouldn’t mind spending that much money on something in game that did *something*. What makes me refuse is that they are 100% aesthetic. I would toss Blizzard ten dollars for a mount because it did something (even if that something were already being done by something I had attained in game). But a non-combat pet serves not even the most basic function. It’s like paying for a title that tells everyone you were able to spend the extra cash on it. It’s not even a real status symbol because the price is so easily afforded by most.
November 17th, 2009 at 1:36 am
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