Jan
30

WAR and the Spin

38 Comments

This will be a short post…I think ;)

Mark Jacobs has been kind enough to communicate to the community his thoughts going forward regarding Call To Arms as well as future patches and updates to WAR:

Well, the cat is out of the bag (or would that be the Liche High Priest out of the tomb?) but hey, that’s what happens when there is a lot of excitement about a product. We’ve already seen a flurry of interviews and videos about what we are going to be working on over the next few months, so I won’t go into excruciating detail now. I will though focus on some of the main things that we are working on, including the “Call to Arms” expansion, over the next five months especially if those things do not fall into the CtA expansion itself.

It’s a very informative letter…although lacking any real timelines for any of this stuff to come out. I do have a problem with this statement though:

Second, as for the new careers, what can I say but they are both very, very cool. Players have asked us for a year whether we would put the Choppa back in and many have asked (especially here on the Vault) that we please add the Slayer. The Slayer was never planned to be a part of the game but based on both player feedback and the support we got from GW on this character, we were able to create a very cool career. When we first removed the four careers from the game during development, there was a lot of teeth gnashing and speculation that we would not put them back in until we did our first paid expansion pack. As I said then, we would not do that and we have kept our word. Once the Choppa/Slayer go LIVE, we will have added four careers to the game over the first 6 months of its life, and at no additional charge to our players. No other subscription-based MMORPG that I am aware of has ever added 4 new careers to its game as part of a regular update/addon/free expansion.

…emphasis is mine because this just drives me nuts.

No…no…no…no (…second time I’ve said that today…). You cannot take a feature out of a game, put it back in and then take credit by saying that you’re the only MMO dev that has added this much content to your game!

I love that he is keeping in touch with the community, but dear gawd….keep the spin to a minimum please.

D out.

Posted in Editorial
38 Comments Posted by Darren

38 Responses to "WAR and the Spin"

  • Snafzg says:
    January 30, 2009 at 11:38 am

    I’ll second that. It’s a bit shady to call pulling content you couldn’t finish in time for launch, adding it to the game after release, “new content.”

  • Andrew says:
    January 30, 2009 at 11:44 am

    I’ll play devil’s advocate on this one. Yes, techincally SOME of those classes were to be in game from the start. Remember the slayer was never really a possability for this game. Still, they cut the classes for whatever reason (conspiracy theory all you want, they said it’s because they weren’t great). The game could have gone on and been played just fine w/o the four classes added in. No matter how it’s looked at, these classes weren’t there at launch, and they are being added in after launch.

    If you want to get more exact with the statement, I would talk about the new powersets that CoH/V have released as part of their free updates is akin to adding new classes. A fire blaster and a sonic blaster are two totally different animals.

  • Ethic says:
    January 30, 2009 at 11:44 am

    I’m also sick of hearing him say how cool something is going to be. And get over yourself calling adding things you took out of the game back in as an “expansion” or even some sort of amazing accomplishment. Mythic has a LONG LONG way to go before they can compare themselves to the content cranking out machines of LotRO and EQ2.

  • Jim says:
    January 30, 2009 at 11:47 am

    But people that purchased the game and did not participate in beta did not know about this content. To them it is new and it was not paid for. I would guess that over 50% of the people playing had no idea that it was removed. Most people just play the game, they don’t know about most of this until it is released. This is free content. It may of been part of the original design of the game, but it was removed from the released version that every one bought. They are now giving it to us for free.

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Yes Jim, but Mark was kind enough to hang himself by pointing out that they removed the classes before release and then turn around and brag about how they gave us four new classes for free. It is a self-contained piece of self-deception that does not need any prior knowledge.

  • Mikejl says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Good to see you keeping up the WAR hate. What if Mythic did not put the two classes into the game on this announcement.. would this make positive posts here? I think not.

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Hey, what if Mark gave a pass to bragging about giving out wondrous things his team had previously taken away? It probably wouldn’t have ended up as a post here at all.

  • Jim says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    He did not hang himself he just told the truth. If he had not mentioned they had taken it out, would you have less hate for the announcement? It is nice of them to add the classes for free.

    I do not believe that either you or Darren play this game regularly why hate on it? I love just about all MMOs they are all good in there own ways. Heck most of them are almost the same. This is good news WAR. Just like two new classes for LOTRO was good news.

    It is free too.

  • syncaine says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    So wait, actually adding ‘back’ the content gets them flamed, but never delivering that talked about content (blizzard and hero classes being an extension of current classes for example) and we cheer when 4 years later they charge us $45 for one? Not to mention the Slayer was never a class, both classes have a new mechanic, and the Choppa in beta was utter trash. All this less than 6 months after release? I’ll take that over a single book quest line once a month, or a zone consisting 80% of impassible water.

    They are new classes for a large portion of the players, as only us MMO nuts follow the games as closely as we do in beta. And everyone who bought WAR knew they were buying 20 classes, not 24, so by adding in 4 more, they have indeed increased the value of the original offer, whether that content was in a closed beta in some form or not.

    The only reason players know that Mythic cut content during DEVELOPMENT of the game is because they communicate more with their players than other companies. I’ll take that over the ‘when it’s done’ silence of other developers, especially considering the effect fan feedback has already had on WAR.

  • Samuraigunslinger says:
    January 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    I have to agree with Jim here. There was a great deal of hand wringing when the classes were pulled that Mythic would screw us by not adding them in until the first paid expansion came out. They have, instead, given it to us along with what looks like a fair amount of additional content within the first 6 months of launch. We allways complain when things are released without proper testing and balancing, which Mythic could have done by releasing them broken with the initial release. Instead we have them in a relatively short period of time and with much more time focused on ensuring the new classes work within the evolving framework of the game.

    WAR has plenty of problems, but I think this is an example of one of its real strengths. An active and dedicated dev team sincerely trying to continually improve the game. Im not saying games like LOTRO or EQII lack that, they have it as well.

    I just dont see any way to look on this as a negative. I think the choices were for them to delay launch again, or release it without the extra two classes and such and add them in. They chose to get the game out, with a very smooth launch compared to many others, and have been riding right on its heals with regular updates.

    Good on ya, Mythic!

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Umm, hate on WAR? Please point out where I am hating on WAR. I am rubbed the wrong way by the way Mark phrased his message. I can mentally separate Mark Jacobs from Warhammer Online. Can you?

  • Ludo says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    4 new careers to the LIVE game – what Mark said is totally accurate. He’s saying that the game is healthy and supported and will continue to develop new content for its customers. It’s his job to create excitement about WAR: new careers and content bring in new players and re-subs. Is Mythic the content generating machine known as Turbine? No: but Mythic has always been very transparent and forthcoming with their customers.

  • Jim says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    I was really referring to Darren in that comment but how are you not hating on WAR? So do you like the new classes? Do you like they are putting them in? Do you not think they should of been there?

  • Nat says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:51 pm

    It’s not about WAR hate or anti-WAR hate – it’s about MJ and Mythic not knowing when to shut the hell up about how they are the coolest and will rock your face off with X, Y or Z coming soon.

    I think the backlash with WAR was severe and honestly desired given the hype, marketing and lackluster game they delivered. Statements like this one seem to make this just make that backlash flair back up. Therefore they need to back off on the bragging and such.

  • TheRemedy says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    You’re missing the point Jim. What they are saying is that they don’t like the PR speak. The whole “Aren’t we awesome for putting this brand new content in?” when it’s really them putting in content that was meant for launch.

  • Nat says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    WOW I wish I could edit.

    That second to last line should read “Satements like this one seem to make the backlash flair back up”.

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Not professing love and joy for something is not the same as hating on it Jim, nor is silence on a subject. And how is finding Mark’s phrasing objectionable hating on WAR? If one cannot criticize any aspect of Mythic without being called a hater by you, then I put forth that you need to spend some time examining your own view of the world.

    I look at Mark’s comments and I try to imagine my company putting out a list of features for a product release, then cutting back that list, shipping the product, then adding back in some (but not all) of those features in a follow on patch and trying to sell it as a huge win for the customer. Our customers would call bullshit on that. We drop features all the time and have to communicate that. But when they get back in later, we don’t act like we’re heroes and saved the day. We don’t brag about how our competitors have never added in these sorts of features without charging for them. We don’t insult our customer’s intelligence, which is what I see Mr. Jacobs doing.

  • Jim says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    Do they expect them not to hype it? That is what companies do. They hype the products they sell. This is not about the hype this is about people being hurt because WAR was not the second coming of MMOs. Now they are treating her like an ex girlfriend and slandering her any time they can because she hurt their feelings.

  • syncaine says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Wait Wilhelm, so your company never cuts something during development, and then later adds it in once the product has shipped? If that development was never expected in the final release, the company won’t make an announcement about it if its something major your customer base (and potential customers) were looking for?

    Given how much changes during MMO development, actually delivering what was originally promised is the exception to the rule if you look at the pre-release feature lists for games like WoW, EQ2, LoTRO and others.

  • Jim says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    You know I may need to examine my world view. But in the case of your customers, I am guessing that they have already paid for the product? That is how we work we don’t do some thing for a customer with out them giving us money. In this case you purchased the product and they are adding to it for free. In your case they purchased some thing and you did not deliver. Big difference.

    I may be wrong about how your business works.

    This must be viewed as some one that knew nothing about what happened in Beta.

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    @Jim – If you over-hype, and Mythic hits the mark on that (heh), expect there to be push back. Not everybody who disagrees with Mark’s message is some sort of scorned lover. But if that helps you deal with your own pain, you keep telling yourself that anybody who doesn’t love WAR like you do is a hater.

    @syncaine – I hate to play the “learn to read” card, but I believe I said we ALWAYS announce stuff, end up having to cut some to make a release date, and add it back in later. We just don’t act like we’re doing the customer a great big favor when it happens. We don’t do press releases, but we share feature roadmaps with customers all the time.

    But we’re not talking about something that wasn’t announced, we’re on the subject of features promised, then pulled two months before release. That was probably the right choice (I am on record with a post on my site to that effect) , but you don’t get to come back and play the hero when you finally patch that feature back in. Not in my book.

    My Mark Jacobs challenge: Syncaine points out how features get dropped all the time. Is there another company that dropped a planned, announced, committed feature from a game then later patched it back in and compared themselves as favorably to their competitors as Mark Jacobs has done with this announcement?

  • Nat says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    That ‘hurt’ you are talking about is a result of the backlash from the hype Mythic created. While I don’t think WAR actually ‘hurt’ anyone in this discussion I do think it failed to live up to its own hype (that Mythic, MJ and PB created and helped grow). If you can’t understand that hype played against them in the form of a backlash and that they should stop then I don’t know what to say.

    You can promote something without hype and coming across as arrogant. MJ needs to focus more on selling the message that they are making great strides (ala LotRO and EQ2 style) without the bullshit he is talking now.

    They need to understand that people tend to not like it when companies that are screwing up remain arrogant (see Sony and the PS3 launch).

  • wilhelm2451 says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    @Jim – You keep telling yourself that stuff before release day do not count. Mark’s own words give lie to that, but feel free to hang on to what keeps you going.

  • syncaine says:
    January 30, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    WoW and the hero class, only it was delayed 4 years and cost two expansions, talked about a good year after release as ‘coming soon’. They sold an entire expansion around a different (and imo much lamer) version of the hero class, promoting the hell out of it.

    LoTRO shipped without the PvP zone (granted once added, they might as well have left it out, but still). It was a ‘feature’ being added with one of the books.

    Just because Mythic/MJ do a better job of promoting WAR than whoever at Turbine or SOE, does not mean other companies don’t pull similar moves. This just happens to be the current hot topic, and as Jim pointed out, WAR gets more attention because of how many people went into it with unreasonable expectations and were left wanting.

    And when is something in a beta a ‘promised’ feature, and when is it ‘beta content’? If the classes had been cut and left to die, would we be calling Mythic liars because in a pre-release version those classes were considered? In the WoW early beta Shamans used claw weapons as a key class element, and that weapon was featured on promotional art for the game (I still have the poster), but was later scrapped because forcing a class to use one weapon was not very fun. Are we going to make posts about how WoW lied about a ‘promised’ feature for Shamans in WoW? WAR was sold as a game with 20 classes, they delivered that. No one (should have) bought the game because at some point it had 24 classes in beta (which even that is untrue).

  • Nat says:
    January 30, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    WOW launched without many things it had planned (honor system and BG’s) that didn’t come in until what 6 months latter. Hell WOW even had mention of the honor system in the manual.

    But that’s really not the point. That is really not what is bugging some people, it’s the fact that Mythic is still blowing that damn hype horn too freaking loud.

    People might have went into WAR with unrealistic expectations but that was Mythic’s doing.

  • Ludo says:
    January 30, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    When I was a small child I was promised flying cars, domed cities, and a jet pack by the year 2000.

    Additionally I was told I was “special” and that I would be something “great” when I grow up.

    Clearly the “feature set” of my adult life pales in comparison to the fantasy of my youth.

    Obviously I was lied to.

    I blame Mark Jacobs!

  • TheRemedy says:
    January 30, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    @Syncaine

    Really? You feel what PB and MJ do is good promoting? Well to each his own I guess. I’ve always thought they were less like Barnum and Bailey and more like the guy who stands outside the freakshow tent trying to get you to see the bearded lady.

  • syncaine says:
    January 30, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    They get us talking, right? Who from Turbine or SOE or NCSoft do we ever really talk about?

    And since I like WAR, I don’t view it as the bearded lady, but yea, to each his own :)

  • TheRemedy says:
    January 30, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Nobody implied you weren’t gonna have fun when you were with the bearded lady. :P

  • brent says:
    January 30, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    “No other subscription-based MMORPG that I am aware of has ever added 4 new careers to its game as part of a regular update/addon/free expansion.”

    It’s a good fricking thing I didn’t read that until after work on Friday because it is going to take all damn weekend for me to stop alternating between cursing in disgust and laughing in disbelief. Plus, my jaw seems to be dislocated after hitting the ground upon reading that statement, so I’m going to have to get that wired up too.

  • Weekend links « Book of Grudges says:
    January 30, 2009 at 11:10 pm

    [...] expansion. I agree that it really isn’t, it’s just extra content, a la many other MMOs. Common Sense Gamer also quite sensibly points out that the two MDPS classes were taken out of the game to get it [...]

  • Rog says:
    January 31, 2009 at 9:36 am

    Mark Jacobs just loves shouting “first”.

  • Jim says:
    January 31, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Way off topic but how do you do what

    Weekend links « Book of Grudges

    Is that automatic or did he just type that in and link back to his blog?

  • Peacebringer, Warshade, Arachnos Soldier, Arachnos Widow | Kill Ten Rats says:
    January 31, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    [...] tip to The Common Sense Gamer for the quote. Share and [...]

  • Zubon says:
    January 31, 2009 at 11:45 pm

    Backlinks are automatically generated.

  • “Free” Expansion? « Dark Crag Dispatch says:
    February 2, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    [...] lively discussion of that topic over on Player vs Developer. Along the same lines, Darren of  the Common Sense Gamer argues that the new classes can be an expansion because they were taken of the game before [...]

  • Mikejl says:
    February 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    Patch 1.2 Sneak Peek
    http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=611

    I’m sure the WAR hateraid drinkers will still find stuff to complain about. All I know is if AoC had a patch progress like this it be a better Hyboria.

  • free links says:
    January 25, 2010 at 3:14 am

    Can you provide more information on this? So far the info in your post is Wicked . In the mean while I think im gonna stick around and read about 3 more of your posts. Peace out

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